Welcome To Fatherhood
Welcome To Fatherhood
S4E20: Empowering Dads: Involving Fathers in the Journey (ft. Scott Mair)
This episode concludes my conversation with Scott Mair.
How can dads be more involved in the pregnancy journey and the early stages of their child's life? This is a question we explore. We discuss the importance of engaging both parents from the beginning of the pregnancy, creating a level playing field for open communication, and understanding each other's roles and responsibilities.
Scott also shares his thoughts on supporting both parents' mental health during the perinatal period, the progress made in the UK in providing support for dads, and the vital role fathers play in their child's life from the very beginning.
If you are a male partner looking for support following a loss of pregnancy, or you are with a male partner who could benefit from support, the Dads & Miscarriage Facebook community is here to help.
As always, thank you for spending part of your week with us!
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Dreamweaver by Sound Force
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To The Moon and Back by Sam Barsh
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My name is Kelly Jean-Philippe and you are listening to the Welcome to Fatherhood podcast. Today's episode is the conclusion of my conversation with Scott Mayer. If this is your first time tuning into this podcast, I'd encourage you to listen to last week's episode first. Scott and I have been talking about ways maternity health care settings can better empower and involve dads, especially during the perinatal period, but also for what life may be like beyond.
Speaker 2:So when we introduce the fact that say they can't attend, right, why can't they? we're doing it right now wakey-winky, different size of the pond. Why can't he just video call for five minutes and ask you any questions that he's got? Why can't he just jump in and listen to a little bit of the conversation? Or one of the other things that I designed was a little checklist of questions, so the midwife gives it, sends it home. Dad can write any concerns he's got. She brings it back next time Once those questions are answered. You've got a connection. You've got an invested father in the process now because he feels that he's been engaged. Sometimes the midwife will text and say hi, my name is Heidi, i'm going to be your midwife. I look forward to seeing you in clinic. That's what mom will receive. Send the same text to dad. If he feels invited, he's going to come. He's not going to come to a party He didn't invite him to, so let's invite him.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this conversation and for spending part of your day with us. And now here's the episode.
Speaker 2:So when we have dads in groups and we run the support groups that we run, these are the sort of things that you can word it a little bit differently. I'm really if you're a workman or a tradesman, for example, i'm a bit dirty, i'm a bit smelly, let me get a shower, then I'll take baby, and you go and do you, you know, but we don't teach you how to have that conversation, because the first thing is, oh, i'm tired of being at work all day. And then you've got an argument that didn't need to happen because both are primed to be on the defensive. It's a bit like when they get up in the morning and it becomes a competition for who's the most tired. You know who had the less sleep during the night? you know, rather than just communicating the fact that me, your parents, you're going to be tired for the next 20 years, you just got to accept it.
Speaker 1:But these are all the effects of what we were talking about a little while ago. Right From the beginning, from the inception of this thing, there was already a power dynamic that was created just by the way that you were addressed. You know what I mean. Like like that already pinned you against each other. And so now and let's be honest about this, scott if the expectation is that this person is just like being in school and you're in a group project, if you find yourself as that lucky team member where the smartest one in your group says they're going to take responsibility for everything and all you got to do is just show up, stand there, look smart, and then the other person is going to put the project together, give the presentation, and you're all going to get an. A. Guess what I'm not going to do, scott? I'm not going to ask to be involved in any way because you say you got it. So, in a similar way, if the expectation has been said, you know what? you clearly don't have it, but she does, homie, i'm not excusing that as a reason to coast. It's not a reason to coast because I think, as a man, as a husband, as a father, as a partner, you still have a responsibility to step up of your own character, your own will, your own desire to want to do things. But I'm not going to look down condescendingly on the dude who's like they've been communicating to me for the past nine, 10 months that I don't have a role in this thing, an equal role in this thing. So I'm coasting And, yeah, when we wake up in the morning, it's not been ingrained in my mind for the past 10, 11, 12, 13 months.
Speaker 1:Now it's your responsibility because clearly you know what you're doing. Clearly you're the one to have the more sophisticated develop skillset. Clearly you're the one. So I'm just trying to sleep in for a little while. You're tired, but, yeah, i'll hold the baby for you to go use the bathroom. But when you come out, here's your child back, because clearly I don't have anything to do here. And I know I'm oversimplifying it, but you can't tell me that part of that messaging doesn't have far reaching tentacles in the way that this relationship ends up unfolding Now that baby's here. So all of these problems that we have postnatally that you come across in terms of the dads that you speak with and how they manifest themselves in different areas of life Now that you have a baby in my mind at least in the way that my simple mind works, scott I can just turn around, look back and say, oh, it started right there from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Again and one of the things that some of the research that I've done in this area, so I know I've seen both sides. I've seen the change And if we engage with both parents, whatever those both parents are is irrelevant, right. So you engage from the very, very beginning. So in the UK we have what we call booking appointment, which is your first appointment with a midwife when you found out you're pregnant. Sometimes they will go to the doctors and they will do a confirmation pregnancy test, but when they go for the first appointment, dad tries to go in the work that I've done, not always. Sometimes they can't. If it's 10 o'clock on a Tuesday is it work. Sometimes it's very, very difficult. So when we introduce the fact that say they can't attend, right, why can't they? we're doing it right now. We're communicating from different sides of the pond. Why can't he just video call for five minutes and ask you any questions that he's got? Why can't he just jump in and listen to a little bit of the conversation? Or one of the other things that I designed was a checklist of questions, so the midwife gives it, sends it home. Dad can write any concerns he's got. She brings it back next time once those questions are Answered. You've got a connection. You've got an invested father in the process now because he feels that he's been engaged.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the midwife will text and say hi, my name is Heidi, i'm your new, i'm gonna be your midwife. I look forward to seeing you in clinic. That's what mom will receive. Send the same text to dad. If he feels invited, he's gonna come. He's not gonna come to a party didn't invite him to, so let's invite him. And When we see those things happen, the uptake increases. And then what happens is you have fathers that are more involved during the pregnancy. They will come to the parent education classes. They will come to the antenatal programs a little bit more. You'll even see them in clinic appointments because they now feel they're supposed to be there. So you'll take the time off work if he can. What he won't do is take Unpaid time off work to come to a clinic that you didn't invite him to. That he's gonna sit there and not be spoken to because he can't afford it and He won't do it, and then you'll blame him for not doing it. So it's not trying to make more work for healthcare professionals, me. I understand that. Everything I do is trying to simplify it for everybody. And it's just that you're already doing the work, so you engage it. And the other thing that I'll say on that, which I think is massively important and Any dad I ever speak to I encourage two things during pregnancy. There's lots I encourage, but these are the two non-negotiables from my point of view try and attend The scans at least one of the scans, as early as possible. And the reason I say that is that For most men, because of the way that we think, because of how we process and we are practical, we're tangible.
Speaker 2:But until you hear that heartbeat, this pregnancy is not real. Hmm, because there's nothing to connect to. All you're connecting to is two lines on a stick. It's not happening to you. There's no hormone changes, there's no connection. So a lot of dads that we did in the research, they almost Fake it. So they'll go out and buy their favorite football jersey, or over here, they'll get rugby chops, or they'll go and buy a little Jordan sneakers. Whatever it might be, it's fake, it's. This is what I think I've got to do because she's so excited. That's what lots of fathers have told me when I've interviewed them. When they go and they hear they have to be Time to go to work. There's a connection there. I'm gonna be a dad. There's a connection. So during COVID that was limited and we've seen the impact that had because they didn't have that connection. So I try and encourage that as much as possible.
Speaker 2:And the other thing is to talk to baby. While babies in the womb Talk to the belly as much as you possibly can. I don't care what you tell them And whether it's the sports pages from the paper, whether it's you're reading emails. So what I used to sort of suggest during classes is that they would lie on their partner's lap and They would speak up through the bumps of the voice travels, so the baby could get used to the voice. And you use a language and a tone that you're going to use every day. Lots of people will suggest that you read nursery rhymes. That's fantastic, but we're not Mary Poppins. You don't walk around all day using nursery rhymes, so you've got to use a language that baby's gonna understand. You can't use a tone, yeah, that they associate with, and the research indicates me that if you put a newborn baby up to sort of six weeks old and In a room with five males and their father was one of those five and they spoke to them in the womb. The baby can pick out their father's voice. So that's how important this is.
Speaker 2:They have that connection, yeah, so when they hold baby in the very, very beginning and this is the biggest resistance that I see from new dads, that Even the services not engaging, they've not been engaged that all adds to this, but this is the main issue that I see why fathers will start to disengage. They hold baby in the first few hours, first day or two days, whatever it might be. Baby cries And I think, as a dad with all been there, right, give baby back to mom, stops instantly. Take baby back. Baby cries and you almost can play past the parcel and What we then see is that my baby hates me. Why does my baby always cry when I hold? it hates me.
Speaker 2:And when you have this conversation with fathers and you say, no, it's not, you're a stranger. Baby doesn't know who you are yet because you've not connected with them. They know mom because the sounds, the smell of the heartbeat, that is safety, that is where they want to be. They don't know you yet. So if you've got, your biggest asset is your voice, because that's the only thing you can transfer into that womb. Talk to them. You can't not always, but and once baby starts to calm, you're not as tense and as rigid which we normally are as new dads. Babies don't like that, so the more you can relax and soothe them and talk to them and sing to them and all these great things, they will relax to you once you feel that connection and then you can start studying baby as it sleeps. You know, you can watch, so you know what each cry means, because everyone that's been a parent knows is a different cry for Hungry and where and colicky wind, whatever it might be. As you start to know what the baby needs, your confidence grows. As your confidence goes, your bond with the baby will grow and then you'll want to spend more time with the baby. If you don't think you've been involved and engaged and you don't have that connection and you just give baby to mom all Of the time and you don't bond with baby, that divide becomes bigger and you're less likely to engage.
Speaker 2:And my things? I always try and encourage us during the first week. I call it the golden week. I wish in an ideal world and COVID did this for us and I will. I will shop a minute, but And COVID did this for us me that you could lock the world out and all you had was you, mom and baby in many situations and you could fit. You didn't have the overpowering in laws coming around telling you how you were doing it wrong. You didn't have the anti jasmine that was coming around saying no, no, no, don't do that. Or people saying that you're changing baby too slow or that, give it, give it here, i'll do that, i'll show you. There was just you and you could figure out and i wish i could give that to every parent that for the first seven days it was just them. And forget the washing up or the takeout, whatever, i don't care. Spend time, the free of you as a baby, figuring out what this looks like. That changes everything when we give parents the freedom to do that.
Speaker 1:The problem is we don't do that enough that was the gift that kovat gave me in my life. I mean and i say that respectfully of everyone's experience, negative experience of kovat who lost a loved one or you know people that was the gift that we were gifted with our firstborn in the hospital. Once i got in the hospital i couldn't leave, so i had to make sure that once we walked in there, i was there those first days in the hospital when it was just the three of us man, golden and then we come home. Yeah, we had support and it's so important to have support.
Speaker 1:My in-laws would come and drop food at the front door and we would wake up and there was food at the front door and then we'll just grab it and eat. So it was amazing my sister and my brother-in-law they drove over 16 hours to come and spend like a couple of days with us just for support. Um, i think i shared this on here before my son was born on a tuesday, that friday, when we left the hospital, my wife and i left the hospital with our newborn to go to the uh veterinary hospital to put down her dog. So had it not been for the support of my sister and my brother-in-law who were there to take the dog to the vet and help us weather that storm like it was just a mess and this was a dog that my wife had.
Speaker 2:Can i just add? sorry, man, yeah, i always get amazed when i speak to people in the states. Yeah, talk about that 16 hours. Right, you could drive the whole length of the u k in 10 hours, top to bottom done. Maybe a little bit less if you put that foot down, but yeah, 10 hours, you've done the whole of the u k. That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 16 hours, 16 hours 16 hours dude yeah, well, fairly yeah uh, i once drove from philadelphia, where i live, to michigan, where i went to grad school, in 11 and a half hours non-stop, except for gasoline and stuff yeah, that is crazy.
Speaker 2:No, you're right. You're right that the support and i see this again and when i speak to people that take that we're all very proud, particularly dads, i find and this again is sexist, but it's just what the research tells me is that we don't want anybody to think that we're maybe not coping. All that stuff we touched on the cooking, the cleaning and all that. I did this and i remember doing this, particularly with my first. I didn't want anybody to come around and think it. It looked like things were out of place because seara wasn't able to do it and we've always tried to show. I mean, i've always tried to be. It's close to 50 50 but, like i said, it's really really difficult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't have gender roles in my house and we've talked about this. I have on podcasts before that my boys will come into the kitchen sometimes, you know, and one of my boys especially me being ex-military, i know how to sew. I'm not great. My wife is technically a seamstress. I mean, she could make anything. She's incredible. Um, she's a bit annoying like that.
Speaker 2:She's just everything she does, she's brilliant and she can it annoys me a lot right, but so i was stitching i think it was a something had been ripped and i was stitching it and i was cooking dinner and, um, i mentioned before that i've got injuries, um, from my time in in in the military and i was having a particular. In the winter, everything flares up because it's cold yeah i couldn't quite get down and we had a leak under the sink in the kitchen. So there's my wife got a lover fixing the sink and there's me sewing and cooking dinner, you know and it was like to my boys.
Speaker 2:That's just normal, you know. So we've never really been. This is what dad does, is what one does. It's just i don't think a lot of families quite work like that. I think, yeah, it's just you, you muck in, you get on with it, and one day you're doing this, next day you're doing it. That's how it works for most and that's how it works for us. Um, and you know, i have that conversation with my boys, so it's not like that. But i did struggle with the fact i didn't want anybody thinking that things weren't as good because Sarah wasn't able to do it and i became a little bit neurotic with me and sure everything was almost in its place and didn't want to take that help.
Speaker 2:You know, if somebody wanted to drop me off a lasagna, it's oh no, it's okay, i've got it, don't worry. And i try and tell new parents that take it, take that help, because anything that you're not doing in that domain gives you more time with baby, with with your partner, and i have another rule, that that. I always try and say it, but it's a bit unfair and it's a bit. Yeah, it is. But if, if somebody is coming to see you and you've just had a baby, if they're not bringing something or they're coming to do something, they shouldn't come.
Speaker 2:I agree with that, because it it shouldn't be a case of you're coming around, i'm going to make you a coffee and give you a muffin and wait on you while you hold my baby. If you're coming, take some laundry, do some dishes or bring me some groceries, um, or don't come, and and that's sort of the measures that i get. Obviously it's difficult when you've got certain family members, but people will help. They just sometimes don't know how to to do it, so you can ask. You know, if someone's coming. Can you please pick me up x, y and z, or would you mind taking some laundry and washing, because you're going to go through 10 million baby growers in a week. You know, take that help, take that support. I think we're too proud sometimes and it doesn't serve as well. You know they say that pride comes before a fall and i think when it comes to parenting, sometimes it really does, because you burn yourself out yeah, i agree with that.
Speaker 1:I agree with that 100 percent. And i i want to go back to the notion that all of these things that we've just spoken about, particularly in these last 10 minutes or so, i think all of that has its root and the way that the whole journey began in the first place. Right, i mean part of it is sort of the culture, you know, the, the man's culture of wanting to take charge and wanting to do things and always knowing how to do things, you know, like that kind of stuff and not really being willing to say i don't know how to do that, or asking for, for that help. But the other part also comes down to man. If i have this person come over to the house and they're doing laundry, they're gonna look at me and say, well, why can't you do laundry? you know what are you here for? so she had to carry your child, she had to give birth to your child, she had to. I mean, dude, i mean, it's true, it's true, i'm absolutely true, you know so then i don't want to
Speaker 1:hear that i'm not gonna tell my mother-in-law not to come to the crib, so but i also know when she comes she might say that and i'm not saying that about my mother-in-law, i have great in-laws that i love and respect very much and they're not those type of people. But it's like If that's what I'm gonna have to go to or through, when somebody comes to the house and they're gonna look at me like I've just been, like I'm just taking up space, i'm a space eater. Basically, that's all I am. So, yeah, i am gonna deny the help, i'm just not gonna give it to it because but I'm struggling and I'm trying to bond with my baby, i'm not having sex with my wife, like. So it's a whole convoluted mess that I really think there is no simple solution to anything. Scott, at least I don't think so for some things. Yeah, maybe, but there is no simple solution to anything. But one thing that can really help is just coming down to like the most basic comedy nominator. How are we setting up this couple to have clear, honest, open communication? How are we setting up this couple to see what each of them have to bring to the table as equally valuable, not in a 50-50 way, the way me and my wife function.
Speaker 1:We are fully aware of our backgrounds in history. So you say you've known your wife since 16. I've known my wife since as far back as I can remember. We were both kids. We were raised together like that kind of stuff. So I married a very good friend of mine who is now my best friend as my wife. I know what her family structure and history has been. She knows what mine is. She thrives in structure and stability. I thrive in chaos and YOLO. Like that's just me.
Speaker 2:That's just me.
Speaker 1:Listen. so when we are in chaos and things are falling apart, i tell her listen, babe, i got this, don't even worry about it. I will navigate us through this because through life I've learned how to make lemonade out of mangoes.
Speaker 2:That's just what I do. That's just what I do, and when things are steady and structured.
Speaker 1:I give the reins over to her Like look, you listen. Finances, it's in your hands. You figure out how to do these things, because I get bored in structure and stability. I get bored when things are chaotic. Dude, i am having the time of my life. I am stressed, i am worried, but I am at home. So that makes sense to our dynamics and to who we are, and that's how we've been able to keep this ship afloat this whole time.
Speaker 1:We're playing to our strengths, right. So how are we helping families, new parents, repeat parents, come to that level of understanding? And I think it all starts with in these spaces that you work in and the spaces that these couples go into, whether they're together as like a married couple or a co-parent, it doesn't matter what is being communicated, and I think that's for me that's like the biggest takeaway of our conversation today. What is being communicated? Not with the words and stuff, although that's a huge part of it, but on the more deeply psyche, psychological level. What is being communicated? Because the images that are not seen, it's a means of communication. The images that are there in those spaces, it's a means of communication.
Speaker 1:Giving a resource or resources to one and not the other is communicating something. Everything is communicating everything. So how can we equal the playing field to communicate to men and fathers, outside of the fact that we need to take on some ownership, a lot of ownership ourselves, to step up to the plate and stuff? That's a given, but man, wouldn't it be a lot more effective and efficient if there was also all of the external stuff that plays into how we see our selves and how we move about how we present, how we navigate the spaces. Wouldn't it be awesome if those means of communication, empowered, facilitated this desire? And to me that's like the biggest takeaway from our conversation today, brother.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:I agree with you.
Speaker 2:And it's not difficult. You've got to start somewhere right And we are lucky, particularly in the UK, i think we are having conversations more in this area. There's obviously other countries, for example Australia, doing some fantastic words. Yes, certain parts of Scandinavia are leading the way, particularly when they have shared parental leave that both parents can get up to a year in certain parts, particularly Norway, which is incredible. But they see the benefits because you have children that are more rounded, there's less need for other services, speech and language incarceration numbers are down because children get more time with their parents and they don't have the same worries of going straight back to work. And it's funded at 90% And people used to complain when they introduced it in certain areas that where are you going to find the funding to do this?
Speaker 2:Well, we're going to find it off the back end because we're not going to need as much intervention and there's going to be less breakdown in relationships because we equalize parenting.
Speaker 2:So it's looking at the big picture, which is parenting, and I think you're absolutely right And it's the same you mentioned about the leaflets and the information that they give out, and there's a few different organizations and charities that I work with here in the UK that do do stuff specific for dads now And it's trying to encourage the healthcare professionals to even just give it. You haven't got to do anything, just put your hand it over. And that's a difficult part and one of the things that you touched on the feeding and all the information that they give. But it took me a long time. I remember when my wife was breastfeeding our first and I don't want to go down to negative root, but you know that the services were quite hard to engage with and you can get something as a breastfeeding And it's called mastitis, which is blocked. It's a kind of a block of blood that's blocked in the milk ducts and it becomes infected.
Speaker 2:It's very painful And I remember my wife was struggling and we joked that she went from being Sarah to Dolly Parton overnight. That's pretty much what happened And she was in agony and I phoned up the nurse and I said what can I do to help her? Nothing, i thought, oh, great, thanks, that's really helpful. Over the years, the things that I did, i documented and I come up with like a little Program on how dads and partners could be more involved with the process of breastfeeding, how they could help them, and And I went to the healthcare professional said this is something that I put together and On how dads can be involved in the process to help to support. Because what we don't want to do is because if someone wants the breastfeeding They can't. That's a shame. If someone doesn't want to breastfeed, they shouldn't have to. If somebody tries it and it's not for them, that's fine. But if you've got a poor mom who's sat there and it's sore, it's uncomfortable, babies not getting enough milk maybe, and she sat there crying at two o'clock in the morning, you need to equip that partner or that dad how he supports her through that facts rather than just expecting How to figure out on his own, on her own and him not knowing what to do. So teach him that.
Speaker 2:And I what river with a midwife once and and I had a Disagreep of this on an open zoom forum and And because there was a dad and he did a job. It was like a tree, it was a tree surgeon, that's what he was. He was a tree surgeon and he said my job is very demanding, it's quite dangerous. I don't want to be tired going to work. If you got any advice? And and his wife was a breast feeder and the midwife said, yeah, go and sleep in another room. And I thought, oh my god. And I said I'm sorry, but that's just the worst advice of her in a long time, because one it splits them up and it leaves her to have to deal with that on her own When she sat. And she sat and then you're looking at problems with her mental health because she's going to become very sad and very upset very quickly and He's not getting time. Babies do wonderful things. It took like in the morning, killer, you know, yeah, and they you could sit and you can play with them. So there's his time bonding with the baby. There's them sat, bonding together and learning how to support each other. Yeah, you take that away when you separate them and leave her to just feed. So it's not like I say, it's not always about making sure that we include dad for dad. It's the fact that we do it so that they can support their partner and We we're getting a bit better in certain areas and here in in the UK, part of our national health service or the NHS, for anybody that doesn't know, so our healthcare system We now have what we call the long-term plan.
Speaker 2:Now what that means is that we have special mental health services, which I know you don't necessarily have In certain parts of the States. But so if you've got a mother During pregnancy so what we call the perinatal period, which is from conception to the first birthday It's now it being extended to the second birthday, okay, anything in that is called the perinatal period if you've got a mother who is experiencing problems with her mental health So by that we mean postnatal depression, postnatal anxiety, psychosis, ocd, all the very extreme mental illnesses then they will have a specialist team That will help them through that and you'll get some women that have maybe got PTSD from a traumatic buff. They will help you through the next pregnancy and just give you that little bit of extra support. It's brilliant when it works. The only real flaw with it Which we can't be too critical because lots of countries don't even have it is that You have to be on the extreme end if you're the mild to moderate and you don't have any access to that And you just sort of fall through the wave a little bit, which is sad. But so if you've got a mom and it's only open to mom and dad It's not open to same-sex couples and trans parents at the moment, but so we just have moms and dads. If mom's being screened for her mental health and she's going through that service, they will screen dad at the same time now, so he will get the same support, he will have a mental health assessments and it will help him move forward, which is a massive step, you know, because we weren't doing that before. We now have that. So that is a sort of thing That's coming in place. It's starting to open up other supports and organizations and groups.
Speaker 2:When I first really started, it's only been three or four years since we really started having these conversations at the level that I do now. In that three or four years we've come forward massively in terms of you know, there was people that Hospitals, local level, what we call local authorities, which is a bit like states. We would be going to the heads and saying, these, this is what you've got to do for family services, and It was sort of falling on deaf ears. Those people are now coming back and saying remember, we had that conversation, i will, maybe we could do it. So there's pressure. Problem is with many places when it comes to family services, me is that People don't want to do it until they have to do it And that's the bit that we wait for and, unfortunately, with healthcare providers, that's just a universal thing.
Speaker 2:I think that we all have that issue when, when you have to do something, it's a bit like it's completely off topic, but it's something that I did a little bit of work on is like the opiate crisis, for example, which you know all about. In this case, you know that wasn't an issue until it had to be addressed, and or it was an issue. They just didn't see it as an issue and we had it here, and you know some of the stories. One of the one of the groups that I ran and Although I do run is for frontline fathers, so that military place, fire paramedics and anybody that is in a uniform, basically that can sometimes see the worst The unkind has to offer and then has to go home and make peanut butter sandwiches. You know that that switch is sometimes quite difficult. So I created a platform where they can sort of come and express and and talk about it and and It gets a little bit more support now. You know, different organisations are starting to see the benefit and the importance of maybe including dads and supporting glad. So I know we're ahead of you. I know that from the work that I've done with various organisations. But you know it is, i think it's common.
Speaker 2:I think that that change I just get upset sometimes makes it. It doesn't seem to come quickly enough. You know, and you as well. You know, you see the work that you're doing and you know in the podcast, the fathers that you speak to and Highlighting it and Travis you know you've already mentioned Travis. Travis does great works.
Speaker 2:We know that the impact it has and the damage that it does and unfortunately, a depressed or an anxious father is Much less likely to engage and play with these children and that is very sad because what we see as, and a dad goofing off, you know, blowing raspberries on his babies, told me. Or his toddlers, told me, chasing them around and Playing with them. We've always just thought that's dad cloning around, you know. But there is real proof now that there is massive impact on the child's development from having that interaction, what we call rough and tumble play. So when you know this, you've got little ones. But you know, when you tickle a child There's a point where it's not funny anymore, you know, and it becomes sore or they cry. They don't like it. That's them learning boundaries. That's them learning controlled aggression and other people's space and the fact that what they might find upsetting Somebody else might not. They learn that they learn about self-esteem From the language that their father uses.
Speaker 2:So if you've got a dad that's depressed and anxious and he's maybe had a tough time in the world I get a lot of this from the front line fathers as well Is that they try and prepare, particularly fathers and sons. They try and prepare them for the big bad world. It's been so hard on them as a man, so they use more negative language. They see it as constructive criticism, but the child sees it as they're just being put down all the time and they're being compared to others. And it's why are you not on the football team? like little Tommy down a road? Why did you only get five on your maths assessment? You know, rather than oh my god, you got five, well done, or you might not like football. Let's find something else that, like you know, it's that different language that a father that's depressed has.
Speaker 2:So services that don't engage with fathers, they're just creating this problem to continue that we need to correct it. So it's not just about For the sake of the dad that we include them, it's for the whole family There is. We know the benefits. It's just getting people to put these things in place and there's so much resistance To the extra work. And it's not extra work because if you engage of a dad that then Engages with his child and he develops that nurturing nature, so the child believes in themselves. They've got high self-esteem. They know about boundaries, they know about all the things we've discussed today about relationships. They learned about the difference of gender, gender equality and what real masculinity looks like. Forget this toxic crap that we hear about. And positive masculinity, it is all just masculinity and we see it in all different forms. When we teach that to the next generation, they won't be having these conversations, hopefully, if we get it right.
Speaker 1:But we need everybody to sing off the same hymn sheet or it will never happen brother, listen, i can't tell you how much I appreciate the time that we've spent in conversation and the array of topics that We've covered, which isn't really an array of topics We've spoken about the same thing in just different facets, so That's been really cool. Can you let people know how to get and contact with you if anyone Wants to contact you directly to join any of the groups that you run? So give us a sense of some of the Groups that you run, efforts that you're in so that, and how people can get and contact with you should anyone want to follow up.
Speaker 2:Okay, thanks, Yeah, so the. The three easiest ways of doing it is through Instagram. I have an account called PMH support It's just put on mental health And on Twitter. Anyways, on Twitter I'm Scott, mayor 9. The 9 is for me, sarah, 7 boys and The. The group that I just mentioned, that I run and for the front line fathers, is called fathers beacon, as in beacon of light, and so any one of those things on on social media I'm on most platforms It's Scott may well would link you, you all, to it. But yeah, the PMH support is the group that I for civilians, and the father's beacon is the one for anybody that works on the front.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you so much, man. Thank you for taking the time, thank you for the work that you've been doing, thank you for being you and for allowing your life story to shape what you are doing now, for allowing your life story to keep evolving, who you are becoming and who you're discovering yourself to be I mean that's, we all need to go through that journey, i think. In some ways, i think we all are going through that journey. It's just a matter of embracing it. So thank you for again spending the time and for the conversation. Brother, thanks for having me on. Take care of yourself there. You do the same man.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
