Welcome To Fatherhood
Welcome To Fatherhood is a podcast exploring the often talked about and the often-not-talked about narratives of and about fatherhood. Each story conveys the lived experiences and perspectives of the person sharing it, and every topic is explored through the lens of those in the discussion. These series of conversations are to help me become a more thoughtful father, while I also create a community of contributors who are passionate about elevating fatherhood to new horizons.
Welcome To Fatherhood
S4E19: Empowering Dads: Overcoming Obstacles and Finding Strength (ft. Scott Mair)
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Scott Mair
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Season 4
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Episode 19
This episode features a conversation with my guest, Scott Mair, a husband and father of 7 boys ranging from 20-4 years old. Privately, Scott enjoys spending time home educating his children with his wife Sarah and traveling with them while trying to remain outdoors as much as possible.
Are we truly supporting fathers in their journey through parenthood? Join us in our eye-opening conversation as we explore the evolving roles of fathers and the challenges they face. As we discuss the importance of equal partnerships between parents and the unintentional negative messages some healthcare settings may send to fathers, you'll gain insights into the value of education and support for dads in their journey through fatherhood.
In this episode, Scott shares his own inspiring story of raising seven boys and the struggles he faced along the way. We delve into the significance of spiritual care and psychosocial services for fathers in healthcare settings, comparing the differences in support offered by larger and smaller institutions. Additionally, Scott opens up about his experience with two critically unwell sons and how he reached out to the universe for help, reminding us of the power of connection and the need for inclusivity and diversity in healthcare.
Lastly, we tackle the societal expectations and gender roles in parenting that can hinder fathers from being fully engaged in their children's lives. We emphasize the importance of effective communication between parenting partners, especially during stressful times, and discuss ways to navigate and overcome the challenges fathers face. Don't miss this thought-provoking and inspiring conversation with Scott Mer, as we reinforce the need for spiritual and psychosocial support for fathers to succeed in their parenting journey.
If you are a male partner looking for support following a loss of pregnancy, or you are with a male partner who could benefit from support, the Dads & MiscarriageFacebook community is here to help.
As always, thank you for spending part of your week with us!
Theme Music
Dreamweaver by Sound Force
From Premium Beat
Show Music
It's Gonna Be Different by mandimore
End of It All by Sam Barsh
From Soundstripe
Speaker 1: My name is Kelly Jean-Philippe and you are listening to the Welcome to Fatherhood podcast. Today I talk with Scott Mer. Scott is a renowned expert in paternal mental health and cultural differences. He is an accomplished keynote speaker, lecturer, parent educator and mental health trainer, as well as running several support groups for fathers. With over 20 years of parenting experience and having faced personal challenges, scott advises and educates organizations and hospitals on better engagement with fathers. In this episode, we explore ways some healthcare settings subconsciously convey harmful messages to fathers, as well as the importance of educating and equipping fathers to better meet the personal challenges of fatherhood.
Speaker 2: One thing that I always stress in the work that I do is that people look at parents and we individualize parents, moms and dads, mom, mom, dad, dad, whatever it might be. We don't unite them enough, we don't bring them together as a couple, as a relationship, as the people that are going to have to navigate this crazy, wild journey that parenting is, and what we need to do is focus on the child. The child is the most important part, and what do children need? if they've got parents that are together in a relationship? They need two equally parents that are supported and mentally equipped to deal with what parenting challenges are going to come. You cannot do that by putting all of the pressure and all of the emphasis on one side of that relationship. It's not fair.
Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning into this conversation and for spending part of your day with us. And now here's the episode Check. All right, brother, won't you go ahead and start by please introducing yourself?
Speaker 2: Okay, so my name is Scott, my wife Sarah and I have got seven boys. My eldest is 20. My youngest is four, pretty much every couple of years in between, and we live in a place called Warwickshire, which is pretty much smack bang in the middle of England. I'm originally from Scotland, my wife is Irish, so my boys are what we call Celtic, so they're full of energy, full of testosterone, but full of fun. I work predominantly with fathers in a whole host of different ways, from peer support and guinatal programs. I work for charities that implement what we call father inclusion in predominantly maternity services here in the UK, trying to find better ways in which we can engage with them but also teaching not just services but fathers. They could be parents. You know I am a firm believer, kelly, that 50-50 parenting is very hard to achieve, and I'm under no illusion that in many, many families it's almost impossible to achieve 50-50 parenting, because I don't think life works in that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i think sometimes it's 70, 30, sometimes it's 60, 40, sometimes it's 90, 10. It's just helping families understand that there's so much that a father brings to the role. You know, and the impact they have on their child is massive And the more involved they can be from the beginning and the more interaction they have with their child, the research indicates that you know it has a lasting impact. You know children will be more likely, they will have better self-esteem, they will have sometimes higher IQs, they'll be more socially aware and they will go on to achieve more not always, but that's what statistic indicates by having that male carer. That is more nurturing rather than just the disciplinary disciplinary of what we used to see fathers before.
Speaker 2: As a 40-year-old, my generation of how fathers were is obviously a little bit different And the one thing that I'm trying to push back against a little bit is this terminology of modern fathers. Kelly know that I have been a father for 20 years. I've always been, or tried to be, as hands-on, as involved as I possibly can And I've constantly been labeled as a modern father. And it's nothing modern about it. Fathers have always been capable of it and they've always been engaged and supportive and nurturing. The difference is now it's more acceptable. So we can't keep saying it's the fathers that are wanting to do it more, because that's not necessarily the case. It's that society's learning to accept it. So that's a bit of a long introduction, but yeah, that's me and that's what I'm trying to do.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you making that or bringing that to the conversation this early on, because I've also been caught up in this notion that the things that I'm seeing in the fatherhood space, it's something that fathers are beginning to do now. But I remember when I first started this podcast before I started bringing on guests from all over the place I went into a little solo series looking at the historical portrayal of fatherhood from several eras, at least here in the United States, and what I came across really surprised me. But I just didn't know how to process it at the time. And that is in the colonial periods because of the way that society was organized. It was more of an agriculture, agrarian society And so the work was done on the farm and the home type stuff. And so dad was there And actually dad was the one who took on a lot of these responsibilities to work with the kids, particularly the boys.
Speaker 1: So dad would wake up and his sons or his son would go and help on the farm, milk the cows, you know, plow the field, that kind of stuff, while mom would be home with the daughters and keeping the home. But the father had a hands on role because of the way that the society was structured. Now there's also the sense of that father being the authoritarian, because that society was predominantly male dominated, right, and so he was the authority. You know, dad was the one who was being served first at dinner time. He had his chair that nobody else could sit on because that was like his throne. You know what I mean like that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: But then what surprised me and what I've been able to process through over the past several years, is that the cycle has now come back to the father, who is in many cases being encouraged to but, to your point, has always been doing that, and it is the structure of society that now makes it seem more acceptable. But you're absolutely right. Like that has been happening, as far as my research indicates, since even as far back, if not further, as colonial times. So the notion of this revolution is not really revolution. I was talking to someone not too long ago who, instead of saying a fatherhood revolution, his way of saying it is a fatherhood evolution, which indicates that the role has just continued to evolve, but at the core of it it's been the same thing, right? I mean it's been the same thing. So I really appreciate you bringing that into the conversation early on.
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that you've done that research And it's true. It's absolutely true. We can't argue with history. We can't argue with facts, kelly, we just can't.
Speaker 2: And one of the examples that I use quite a lot is John Lennon. John Lennon from the Beatles. Everybody is aware of John Lennon in terms of what he did for music, but in the late 70s he was a stay at home dad. He took five years away from being the John Lennon that everybody knew to raise his son. Like I said, it's not a new concept. You've took it back considerably further. And I'm using that because that's the example that I use, because it's someone that people are aware of.
Speaker 2: And I was talking to my sons, my sons. You might not know in the States as much, but there's a big band here in the 90s that were called Oasis And they had a few big tunes. In America They've got a song called Wonderwall. Everybody seems to know. Wonderwall is the main tune that Oasis did And they were big fans of John Lennon And a lot of the music was built on the Beatles, which a lot of rock and roll bands have been built off the back of Oasis. And it was my sons. So that conversation. That's why John Lennon came into it, because they're big fans.
Speaker 2: We got talking about music and why I do the things that I do. I have these conversations with my boys quite a lot. We home educate, you see. So we're trying to do a lot of real life teaching And these are the things that we talk about. It's parenting, it's skills, it's relationship building and how we do these things. And I mean, you're absolutely right, it's not a new concept, it's just something that, because of social media, i think it's got a large part to do with it, and I'm not criticizing social media because you and I would never have met with it, absolutely. So it is very, very powerful, but we see things a little bit differently And we see celebrities doing things and it just makes things a little bit cooler to talk about.
Speaker 2: It's okay, it's in mental health. We're quite fortunate that here in the UK, for men in particular, tyson Fury, the heavyweight boxer he came out a couple of years ago put a bit more than that now And he brought out books and he talked about his struggles with mental health and the problems that he'd had, but he highlighted the fact that it was weeks, maybe even days, after he won the World Heavyweight Championship, that he has rock bottom. You know, when you would expect him to be on top of the world, he really wasn't And he was really struggling. And him talking about that and putting it in books and going on the news and being on social media, my inbox for particularly young men that were looking to talk about their problems and their struggles started to increase in volume because it had been made okay to talk about it by someone that was seen on the statue that Tyson Fury is. And when it comes to parenting, when it comes to how we're supposed to do stuff, we do look to social media and what we class as celebrities to make things okay.
Speaker 2: So when I see a celebrity dad like I think it was about three or four years ago now you've got Daniel Craig, who is James Bond carry any son in a baby sling you know, all of a sudden, the baby sling conversations that I have increased.
Speaker 2: You know you've got more organisations wanting to know how they could target more dads, because if James Bond can wear a baby in a baby sling, then it must be okay. Some of the criticism that he received for doing that by the likes of Piers Morgan, who I know you're aware of in the states. He said that James Bond should not be doing that and that could do a little bit of damage, sorry to particularly younger, impressionable fathers, but on the whole, it was with Daniel Craig. You know, james Bond can carry his baby in a sling around the supermarket then so can I. So it does really, really help, and I think that's the only thing that's changed. We've got more exposure and we see more people doing it and we even see our peers, so we see fathers that are posting on their Instagram pages of taking their kids to the park, which encourages other dads to take their kids to the park. That's the only thing that's changed from my point of view is we've just normalised it a bit more.
Speaker 1: I obviously know your story and your background because the first time I heard about you and we met was you had a conversation with one of our mutual contacts that we met on Instagram, travis, and you were featured on his podcast, the Therapy Dads podcast, and I was really moved and struck by your story And then I reached out to you and so this conversation that we're having now has been in the works for at least two years now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but later than never.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the reasons why I have been wanting to have you on the podcast and I'm so thankful that now is the time I'm in a space myself where I am, i've stumbled upon, as a result of my personal experience, the need for education in spaces that cater heavily towards moms, for good reasons, at the expense of dads, because of what my wife and I went through with our journey of many miscarriages. So that's a journey that I've embarked on recently, but you've been in this space for quite some time and other ways, particularly mental health and perinatal care and those sort of spaces. So I want to thank you for members of my audience who don't know your story, and I don't want you to abbreviate it, but if you want to feel free, give us a sense of who Scott Mer is and the experiences that shapes the work that you've been doing, for however long you've been doing it.
Speaker 2: Okay, i'll do that, but what I will say from the beginning is that the who's got mirrors. So if you've got anybody listening to this, this may be a little bit younger, just starting out in life, maybe just starting out in their journey into parenthood, and younger men particular. I like to stress this fact that up before T1 in two months time, i'm just starting to figure out who's got mirrors And so if you don't know when you're a little bit younger, that's okay. You know it's a process, it's a journey. We are constantly evolving And we sometimes live to within the structures of what we think a man should be. And it took me a very long time to lose those shackles. And I speak to my boys, i speak to their friends, i speak to people within my community, particularly younger men and teenage boys, about all the everything they see about masculinity and what a man is supposed to be and what is right and what is wrong, and it's very difficult to know who you're supposed to be And it took me a very long time to understand that I'm supposed to be me And I had to. I had to lose who I thought I was, to find out who I'm actually supposed to be, and I think that that is a process that sometimes takes a long time And I always like to stress that when you get asked who am I? because it takes a long time to figure out who you are And some days you're different to what you are the next day. But in terms of the journey into this world, i said sort of spoiler a lot.
Speaker 2: My wife and I have got seven boys And I always joke about this and say that, yes, we do have a television and no one that have any more. But my wife is Irish. You know, big family was always sort of on the cards. I came from a smaller family that didn't really do everything together And I met my wife, sarah at 16, first day of college here in the UK starts at 16. We met on induction day. We've been together ever since, so 25 years in September And the first time I was sort of introduced to her family was this big Irish Christmas Where everybody comes around and you've got family coming from everywhere And I just thought it was growing. I just really really liked being around people that they might not spend every day together, they might not see each other every week.
Speaker 2: They might only see each other twice a year, but when they get together it's just magic And I thought I really want that. We really really want that. So we pretty much discussed four or five is what we thought we'd have in terms of children. Never in a million years did I think they would all be boys At 18,. We got married. I'd gone off to join the military, i joined the army, we got married at 18. And for anybody that knows the UK, my claim to fame is that my wife and I got married in Edinburgh Castle. So I'm literally a prince And yeah, so that's it. That's as good as it gets. That's my claim. But yeah, we got married in the castle And it's a perk that is only reserved for military personnel. So it's pretty cool. Yeah, we pretty much embarked quite quickly, and you mentioned Mesh carriage.
Speaker 2: We've lost what would have been our first, and a lot of the work that I've tried to do speaking to men is that I carried a lot of guilt with that, really, because I'd gone off to join the military And I convinced myself that that stress, that worry of me being away and we've been separated for the first time since we've been 16. We had done everything together. Like I said, we went to college together, we spent most nights together, we were just best friends, as well as everything else And all of a sudden I was gone And I convinced myself that that baby loss was my fault. I sometimes try and highlight the fact I don't like using the word as such mess carries, because I think that implies that somebody did something wrong. You know, if you've got miscarriage of justice, that means that somebody, something, has been accused of something wrong. I think it puts the emphasis on the person carrying the baby has done something wrong. That baby wasn't a viable pregnancy. I don't think that's necessarily helpful all of the time, but from our point of view that was our first journey into what would have been parenthood, and then what is now my eldest. He was a suspected miscarriage. At the time They'd be using that word, but that's what they deemed it as, and it was the sort of blasé attitude that we were on the young. If this baby didn't make it, there's plenty of time to have another one, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2: And I was on military duty at the time. I got phone calls to say that Sarah had been took to hospital, so I rushed over and got to the hospital and I wasn't allowed in to where she was actually being being triaged. And when I asked why, they were told that she was with the doctor and that I would be allowed in after she'd finished. And this upset me because I wanted to be making sure she was OK And I stressed that I was in military uniform. So when you're in a hospital you've got to conduct yourself a certain way anyway, but everyone's looking at you when you're in military combat And I thought I don't want to get too upset. But I was quite upset And the following comment was your wife's miscarriage doesn't concern you, mr Mayor. Is what the nurse said? So that we are going back 20 years? you know, but that was so. I was left outside for about 15 minutes And I didn't know.
Speaker 1: But let me pause you right there. Though That's going back 20 years. In many regards, that hasn't changed, scott, no, and that's problematic.
Speaker 2: It's a big problem.
Speaker 1: I just, i just wanted to, i just wanted to highlight that.
Speaker 2: I would like you to jump in as much as you can. So in that 20 years I say this quite a lot that in many ways we've moved forward in lots of areas. In many ways we haven't Right, And that's the frustration. That's probably the part that keeps me awake at night sometimes is that we're just not moving forward quickly enough. And I see the impact that it has on me And you know I read the messages I run the groups. I see the pain that it causes And we just don't seem to address it quickly enough.
Speaker 2: And then so from that point on I maybe changed my view a little bit on on services and, let's say, a young dad And my. It was a very, very high risk pregnancy And there was a lot of stress. My son made it very traumatic delivery in the end And he had to have sorry for anybody listening if this is upsetting, But it's relevant So he had what we call Vauntus here, which is like a suction cap when the baby stuck on the way out So it can just shape the head. Yes, And so we talk about it now because that humerus became very powerful in my house when things go wrong. We put a baby hat on him and it didn't touch his hairline, It just sat on the lump on top.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a cone. Like a cone head. There's a movie from the night, yeah.
Speaker 2: That's what it was like, but it was really sore. So his sort of introduction to the world was painkillers, paracets, more cow poll we have here, and he was in a lot of pain. He was quite discomfort And I was convinced that there's going to be an impact. He's going to be brain damaged. It can't look like that and just go away, right. And nobody really explained it to us that it was going to be okay And turned out it's fine. You know, after a few months, maybe four months at a push, you'd never have known there was ever a problem. It all did settle back down, but it was holding him for the first time. It was awful because his face was swollen, his head was swollen And nobody really explained to you what was going on, and not looking for sympathies to highlight in the points. And then my next son was born And we this is before YouTube, right.
Speaker 1: So you're trying to figure out as you go. It's crazy to think that there was a time before YouTube. It's true. I said that to my boys.
Speaker 2: You do realize we didn't have tip top And so you're trying to figure out what's the best way to do things. And maybe there's a maybe. That's a shame we don't have that anymore, i think. But one of the things I came up with was that when we bring the new baby home, i've got to help my son be prepared for it, and we spoke to various different people And this was a time where we had something called Shrp and Nanny And she was always giving this advice on how to parent and my views on parenting didn't quite align with hers, so there wasn't really anywhere to get parenting advice.
Speaker 2: So I bought a doll and a pram and a little baby set and I could show my son. He had to, he could replicate what I was doing And he would bath baby. My wife breastfed So he would give his baby doll to mommy. Mommy would feed the baby, baby would go to bed And it helped him understand the process of what was going on, and one day in particular. But we didn't have boy dolls. We couldn't get one. It was everything was pink. You can now get little boy dolls. So this is the end of the video. Local nurse we call them health visitors. Here They come out with a big home like a district nurse almost like, and she was looking at my son and she said are you okay with that? And I said what do you mean? And I was in the military at the time And she said your son's playing with girls toys. This is what she said, right?
Speaker 2: And this is 17 years ago And I said what do you mean girls, toys? Because well, he's playing with dolls and prams. And I said to her if that's what you think of him, what do you think of me? Because where do you think he's learned that from? You know, he's watched me with his baby brother and he think I'm actually quite proud of the fact that he thinks that's okay, that that's what men do or boys do, and that opinion pretty much shunned off, based on fathers and what fathers were supposed to do.
Speaker 2: So then rest of the boys not so many particular traumas until my last three. We had many complications towards the latter stages, which were all born by a cesarean, and my wife was very unwell for number six and seven and people they've got will have their opinions that maybe you should have stopped. But particularly with number six it was. There was all sorts of complications. They were both critically ill at one point And we needed to understand what had gone wrong And it took us 18 months to almost two years to get an explanation and an understanding for what was wrong. And in that point number seven was conceived And we went through a very anxious pregnancy on both sides, particularly mine, because I was terrified something really bad was going to happen to Cedar.
Speaker 2: And services just didn't know how to engage with me. They wouldn't talk to me because it wasn't happening to me. It's not my body, it's not my pregnancy, even though in my mind it's still my baby, and that's your wife And it's my wife says, the two most precious commodities I have, and you won't let me discuss.
Speaker 2: It created a lot of anxiety for me And I didn't really have anxiety before And and oh, that's not true I hadn't realized I'd experienced anxiety before, because I didn't really know enough about anxiety And I knew I'd had issues before. It was always. I thought it was more depression And I struggled a little bit. I left the electric injuries and I suffer from chronic pain And there's a lot of connections between depression and pain And it just all masked up. That that's why I was experiencing, But it's probably anxiety that I'd experienced for a little bit longer than I actually realized. But this is where it came to a head.
Speaker 2: My youngest was born. That was this pregnancy with anxiety. He was neonatal baby, He was born premature, Couldn't breathe by himself And at the same time my wife became critically ill with sepsis after he was born. And it was in that realization that I might lose both of these. And at one point that looked very, very likely And I remember sort of setting with my youngest who was in the incubator, couldn't hold him And my wife wasn't well enough to come and see him.
Speaker 2: Nobody really speaks to you in a neonatal unit. They don't really know what to say or what to do. It's a very strange place to find yourself And I remember sitting looking at him and they said that if he makes it through the first night he's got a better chance. But the odds are pretty much stacked against him And I remember sort of sitting there watching him through the glass. You can't even touch him And I'm begging him almost He's only ever been able to describe it That just everything you've got the man. Just get through tonight and I'll do the rest. Just get through tonight And I'll fight as much as I can. I'll fight however I can, But for tonight this is on you.
Speaker 2: I'm not religious. My wife is Catholic, which is Irish, you know. So she's Catholic. I'm not religious at all.
Speaker 2: But this is probably, in this moment, when they were both so critically unwell, The only times I've ever prayed in my life, Because I knew that I needed somebody much more superior than me. I needed the powers a lot stronger than I was, And I now have a new affiliation for the universe and how it provides And there is something greater than us. I don't necessarily believe in anything in particular, But you know, I asked the universe to help me and I believe they did. You know, because they both made it And they tell the story and it broke me.
Speaker 2: It absolutely fundamentally, mentally, put me in a way that I've never been able to articulate. I don't know. We put it down to trauma, PTSD, You can list off all these different things, but I know that was the point where I thought stop the world, I've got to get off. I just I cannot take any more of this. It's too much. And I didn't know where to go. I didn't know how to speak to. There wasn't really great support for fathers. Services didn't know how to interact or to speak to me.
Speaker 1: Interesting. you say that because at a neonatal setting isn't there. I don't know if how things are in your setting or how things were in your setting. how old is your youngest son now? He's four, he's four, so this was four years ago. I've been working in a pediatric setting that also has a pretty large neonatal unit And within one of the services that is offered there is psychology or psychiatrists. you know, come out around and speak with parents and provide support. There's also spiritual care services, of which I'm a part of, and there are other psychosocial services available. Was there anything like that in the unit that you were on, or maybe did anyone even allude to those services possibly being available for you as a dad?
Speaker 2: No, no to both, and unfortunately, the way that things are particularly here is that you have different grades or different levels of hospitals, a bit like your trauma units and smaller community hospitals. Yes, we have something similar in our maternity set up, so we have larger hospitals, which are normally in our case anyway is classed as a university hospital, so it's a teaching hospital, so it has better facilities, better funded, better staff. I work in one of those, ok, and so ours is a more what you would class and maybe a community hospital. So it's a smaller unit and less support. Not criticizing the staff, but we didn't have anything more than just the staff that were on offer, i see. And then we've now the local hospital, everything you're describing. There's some wonderful staff that have fought to put that sort of thing in place and they now do have support and screening.
Speaker 2: Today, ironically, i had a meeting with the head of the local neonatal unit to put on support sessions for fathers in particular, and I've got babies in neonatal unit where they can come and have a chat with other parents. I'll sort of co-facilitate it with a healthcare professional have a coffee and a chat, whatever it might be, just because it's in some units. What they will do is if you've got a maternity unit and the neonatal unit is within that maternity hospital, it will run things for all parents. Now, if you're a neonatal parent, you don't really want to mix with people that are taking their babies home tomorrow that didn't have a traumatic experience. It's quite upsetting, so you really want to speak to other people that have been through it, and particularly with men.
Speaker 2: What I've found from the research that I've done is we are quite tribal. We know that, but it's men. Men want they will feel comfortable somewhere where they know the men have been before them, yes, and it's that they're not necessarily the first one. So when they go into so when I do work with particular maternity units or where they will go for scans, for example, or family centres don't just have images of mum and baby on the wall, you know. Don't just have a waiting room that's pink and purple. You know it's not rocket science, but you know, have a more neutral colour on the walls. Have some pictures of dads, but not just any particular dad. You know that you've got different demographics, so different coloured dads, bearded, tattooed dads with earrings, same sex couples. Just have everything that you're going to get a family, because men will feel much more comfortable if they think somebody else has gone through this doorway first, rather than the fact that they're sat in a room that's full of pictures of mum and baby and everything's pink and they're going to think I'm not supposed to be here And if you don't, then engage with them.
Speaker 2: They sit in a room that is full of mumins, things, and they sit in a room where you don't speak to them. The likelihood of them coming back is very slim. Yes, and then what happens is well, dad doesn't engage, dad doesn't come, or he did, but you missed the ball because you did not know how to engage with him, and they will blame the dad. So there is work being done to try and correct that. I can see you smiling, so I take it that's something that you share an opinion on.
Speaker 1: What you're saying is so spot on. I have been on, i've been in the middle of this conversation. In large part There's the sense of dad doesn't show up until the baby is being born. I mean, i was having a conversation on this platform with a really close friend of mine who said that about her husband. Right, that he only showed up because she works in the field and she was able to relate to him all of the information pertinent because she is a professional In this field, so she would go to her own appointment. Her husband wouldn't show up because when she got home she would tell him. So he only showed up when it was date of delivery and he was there in the delivery room. But I said to her I was like cool, now imagine the couple that shows up and from the gate they're pregnant. They're both excited. Dude, that's how I was when my wife told me she was pregnant the first time. First time we were excited. And now imagine both mom and dad shows to this place and they are full of excitement. And the moment they step into this medical space, mom gets 99.99% of the attention, which is duly needed because you know she's the one carrying the baby And then homie just gets left behind And, to your point, he walks in and what he sees is pictures of mom and baby.
Speaker 1: He sees, you know, the colors are. I mean, everything is communicating. This is a space that you're walking into, that you don't belong. You don't belong here. She's actually the one, who is the one, who is who this space is catered for. Her comfort is the one that we are primarily and, quite honestly, absolutely concerned about. Yours not necessarily. You know what. In fact, we're going to call you the support person. Oh, that's how we're going to demote it. We're going to call you the support person, which is a broad category that can be filled by literally anybody else that's in this room or that's outside on the street. You're just the support person. So to me, that's like, oh okay, that communicates something to me On a deeper subconscious level. That communicates to me as the husband or to me as the partner, that, oh, okay, so when I come here, i need to make sure that it is her voice that is heard. I mean, i need to make sure that you know she continues to get all of the attention And if I'm feeling something, if I'm thinking something, if I have a partner, if I have a perspective or a point of view or anything like that, i'm just going to keep that to myself. Maybe we'll talk about it on the ride back home or later on at dinner time, but here in this space, now I feel I don't want to say intimidated, because that's more of a subjective thing But now I don't feel invited into a space or a conversation that could be happening, because everything in the space is communicating that this is not my space to be in. So then, how does that? So that's part of it.
Speaker 1: The other side, then, has been taking the guy who has now experienced all of that And, you know, because of the discomfort or for whatever other reason Scott, for whatever other reason he doesn't show up. Isn't it funny that there will still be conversations amongst the people who work in that space in terms of how they look at that woman. I wonder if she's a single mom, where is that deadbeat guy? Why is she here by herself, particularly in these high risk maternity spaces? Why does she come here by herself? What is he doing? He must not care, he must not this And all of these sets of assumptions that are created, but nobody stepping back and saying how are we contributing to the discomfort of this guy. And now this is clearly me speaking out of, you know, not necessarily hypothesis, but obviously, like in my personal experience, i felt very comfortable in those spaces with my wife, my wife. But my mentality going into those spaces was precisely to counter the way that the staff, the space itself and what you're talking about, the decor, the decorum of those spaces is still communicating something. And so I was like I'm going to show up because I need people to see my wife show up with, not just anybody her husband, and I would make it a point to let people know that I was not just the support person, i am her husband, father of this child that's in her womb. It is this guy sperm that made that woman pregnant, ain't nobody else. I'm claiming that for myself. And the last thing I want to say is it goes even further into the postnatal area, where recently I took my infant to his two month checkup appointment And at the first month my wife was the one who went in with him. This time he was getting vaccinated and my wife was like I just can't do it. You go in with him, babe. I ain't got no problem, i'll go in with him. So I go in with him.
Speaker 1: I am handed an iPad for a screening or survey or whatever the case is on the front page of the iPad In order to begin the survey or the screening. There are two options to access the survey. In a little box It just says mother. In the other box it says I am not the mother of this child. Given that I'm not the mother of this child, i am this child's father. I hit I am not the mother of this child. The screen then changes to the next screen that says thank you so much for responding to this question and it reset to the homepage.
Speaker 1: I didn't get a screening. I couldn't access the survey because I chose the option that best suited who I was. There was no father. There was no nothing. It was simply are you the mom or are you not the mom? And if you're not the mom, then obviously we don't think that you can answer any of these questions because you know you don't know anything. Mama knows best. Mama's the only one who can answer these questions.
Speaker 1: So now, if I was a first time father and I don't have any of these thoughts that I have in my head and I am completely feeling overwhelmed by this newborn and life and, whatever the case is, i'm going through my circumstances. How is this not communicating to me that I am ill equipped To even be able to answer questions about my own child? Isn't the very computer programming Reflecting the assumption of the people who made it that it is only the mom who is? I mean, call me crazy, brother, call me crazy, but all of these things are sending clear messages to fathers You are not it, you're not equal by virtue of you being a dad and Dude. It's so ironic. It is so ironic because, if you take those same principles, these are the same principles that are being highlighted in different types of conversations. Let me explain.
Speaker 1: So, by virtue of me being a woman, you're saying that I can't be the CEO of a corporation Just because I'm a woman. Isn't that what our society is fighting against, has been fighting against? To be like no, someone's gender should not be the determining factors of why they can or can't do a certain job, Fulfill their certain role, right? Isn't that what the whole glass ceiling thing is about? So we have these concepts that we're like yeah, this is wrong in these areas, but in one of the most fundamental fabrics of human community. In terms of parenting, it's okay, because mama knows best. And that guy, yeah, he's just a sperm donor, yeah, he's just a support person, yeah, he don't know anything. And to me that's baffling, bro, it is so baffling. So, yeah, i got a couple of opinions about that. Spot on.
Speaker 2: All of that is absolute and it's funny because obviously you're sat in the States, we're here in the UK. Same problems, doesn't matter where you go, same problems. And The vast majority of the work that I do on my day-to-day basis, working with healthcare professionals and government organizations, is trying to address that. And the one thing that I say that you've just articulated perfectly We have mother and partner is what we see here, and for a whole host of reasons, and obviously one of them is that we're trying to be inclusive of all families and the lgbqt plus community, which we're for a family, as a family. And one thing that I always stress in the work that I do is people look at Parents and we individualize parents, moms and dads, mom, mom, dad, dad, whatever it might be. We don't unite them enough, we don't bring them together Enough. We don't bring them together as a couple, as a relationship, as the people that are going to have to navigate this crazy Wild journey.
Speaker 2: That parenting is yes, and what we need to do is focus on the child. The child is the most important part, and what do children need if they've got Parents that are together in a relationship? They need two equally parents that are supported and mentally equipped to deal with what parenting challenges are going to come. You cannot do that by putting all of the pressure and all of the emphasis on one side of that relationship. It's not fair. So what? so when we look at the fact that dads are not engaged? everything you've said bang on me and It's the same sort of stuff that I push for here, but the way in which I sometimes try and explain it to people that don't want to listen is that you cannot keep putting all of that on mom. It's not right, it's not fair. Have to make all the decisions, all of the pressure, and then she's already got the pressure, particularly in that post natal period. How she feels, how she looks, is she going to go back to work? Is she not going to go back to work? Is she going to breastfeed? Is she not going to breastfeed? how they're going to sleep with the baby all these conversations are just thrown at mom, as if the other Person doesn't go to clue.
Speaker 2: Well, the other person might not have an understanding of it because nobody's explained, nobody spoke to them and believe it or not, which maybe you can attest to, i don't know but In the market research that I've done with fathers, is that not many men will sit around the pub with their friends on a Friday After work and talk about being fathers in the future.
Speaker 2: It's not a conversation that comes up a lot and and they might not have that relationship with their own father, it might not be a conversation they've had, so that we're bringing them into a world that they may be not had a lot to do with, and then we don't engage with them and the only way that I've been able to describe it, kelly, is it's a little bit. If you've got, you've got children, obviously. So you've got a little one and they're looking for a snack and they're hungry And you're making dinner and you know that dinner is going to be ready in 10, 15 minutes time And you give them that snack and then they don't eat their dinner and you blame them for not eating their dinner.
Speaker 2: That is what we do? That is exactly what we're doing. We're not engaging, we're not giving them the respect that they deserve and then we punish them for not having the information that we didn't give them in the first place. And when it comes to dads, the research indicates and so So many surveys, so many research pieces, so much evidence to back this up that it has to, we have to use the language Dad or father, because what happens is, if you use the support person or you use partner, what that does from the very, very beginning is that identifies you as the relationship with the person that's giving birth. So it's not identifying you to your relationship to the child. So from the very beginning, you're an inferior parent. That is the message that we give you.
Speaker 2: 100 your opinion doesn't matter. What you want to do doesn't matter. As long as you support that person that gives birth. Then what happens Particularly here in the uk is they will say right, your job is to look after mom. Make sure mom's okay when she goes home. Make sure she's not overdoing it, particularly if she's maybe had a caesarean or whatever the Johnny might be. Don't let her do x, y and z and make sure she's spending time bonding with baby. Keep an eye on her emotions. Make sure she's eating and drinking right. Fantastic, men are very practical thinkers. We're very logical to the way that we're programmed to be as hunter-gatherers, so if you tell us to do something, that is what we will do and that becomes the category.
Speaker 1: That just becomes the thing. As long as I can check these things off, i've done my job exactly.
Speaker 2: And then Somebody comes around friend or family, nurse, or you go to the clinic or whatever it might be, and it's okay. Who's doing nighttime feeds? mom says I'm doing nighttime feeds, okay, who does bath time? I do bath time, all right, okay. All right, okay, who does this and that, what I'm doing it? and then they will say if dad is there, um, or if they're in the home for a visit which we get here, um, why are you not doing x, y and z with baby? And dad will say but you didn't tell me you do that. You told me look after mom. So I'm making sure.
Speaker 2: And we laugh because it's true, man, right. So you told me. So I'm going to work, which is I'm taking care of my family, which is what I've been told to do by society. Um, if I am at home, i am doing the cooking or doing the cleaning or doing the shopping. I'm making sure she's comfortable, i'm making sure she's got everything that she needs, making sure she's attending appointments and whatever. It makes sure she's comfortable when she's breastfeeding And she's got drinks and snacks and she's got all these. That's what you told me to do. I know you're punishing me for doing it because I'm not doing what you didn't tell me to do. And here and here's what?
Speaker 1: here's what we're not saying, scott. We're not saying that those things are Bad, that those things shouldn't be done. We're not saying that, as a husband, as a partner, that you shouldn't take on those responsibilities in order to support, because You and I both know, and everybody else who's listening to this who's a parent You started off by saying this in the beginning 50, 50 parenting is a fable. It's an, it's an absolute fable, particularly in those early days of welcoming in a newborn, whether it's. I mean, i reached out on In general after we brought our infant baby, our new baby, home and I was like I need help figuring out how to navigate having a toddler and a newborn, and you were one of the people who reached out and gave me some great advice. So Here's an instance where I've already gone through bringing a newborn into the home phase once with my firstborn, and now I'm doing it again and I still needed help. You went through that seven times, my guy And I'm sure all seven times. Seven times you needed to figure something different from the previous time. So it's not like we're saying that Those things aren't important because it is just strictly Survival mode. I mean, it is just strictly survival mode checklist. Galore, hey, is this happening? is this kid fed? is this one? How many ever children you have? we just need to make sure that we hit the key points And then we can go to sleep, if we can get an ounce of sleep. So those things are crucial, those things are necessary, those things are absolutely Important, to quote the infomercials. But wait, there's more And it's that more part that is not being Highlighted.
Speaker 1: I mean, i always say this, particularly in the realm of pregnancy loss and the support that Moms get all of the pamphlets, all of the numbers they can call, all, i mean just all of the support, even postnatally, all of the hate in this recent Birth that my wife, you know, my, my, our infant, the social worker comes to the room and she's talking to my wife. She has a whole paper of Resources and numbers and back and front that she hands over to my wife And then graciously walks out the door. Man, i got nothing, my friend. There was no pamphlet for me, there was no resource for me, there was no number for me. It was all, you know, just the nod like oh, you're dad, oh, hey, hi, how you doing.
Speaker 1: And then, so listen, you know, lactation support all of that stuff. Obviously, i'm not producing milk, so I don't need lactation support. Right, like? it's perfectly fine for her to get a whole encyclopedia worth of resources Yes, give that to her. But, man, one of the most important things that a woman, a mom, could have after having a child or after experiencing some trauma in childbearing, is an equipped husband, male partner, who is able to not only know how to process his own stuff, because in learning how to process his own stuff and gaining the support himself will be in a better place to also partner with her and supporting her, as she should be partnering with him to support him. Because, guess what, we're both going through A tough time.
Speaker 2: Oh, mate, yeah again. Could not agree any more if I tried. And that goes back to the point we individualized, we don't unite. It's something that I've said quite a lot. We need to go back to school, really, and go back to a much younger age and we teach communication skills, how to be in a relationship, and that's not just with partners but with friends, but also with ourselves. You know how to be in a relationship with ourselves. We're stuck with ourselves And it's a bit like I've said this to my sons before if you had a friend and when I talk about mental health I use this analogy if you had a friend that every time they said that they were gonna do something, or I'll meet you at the gym tomorrow, and they didn't turn up, and then you do it again and they didn't turn up.
Speaker 2: Or we'll go for that lunch on Saturday and they didn't do it, or next Sunday we'll go for a cycle on the bikes, and they didn't turn up You'd start to lose confidence and you'd lose faith in that friend of we. But we do that to ourselves, yeah, because the diet's always gonna start on Monday and it doesn't. And we're always gonna go to the gym tomorrow, and sometimes we don't and we always criticize ourselves, so we don't teach how to be in that relationship with ourselves and how to treat ourselves and be kind to ourselves, how to manage expectations because I say this quite a lot when it comes to parenting Expectations is the absolute enemy for reality, because how we think parenting is going to go is always very different to how it actually goes, and the only perfect parents you're ever gonna meet in life are the people that haven't done it yet, because they've all got wonderful views and opinions on how it's gonna be and it doesn't go like that. It's very, very difficult. We're not prepared for that and I see relationships that break down all too often because they just weren't prepared for that little wobble when they bring a baby home for the first time and the fact that particularly men and I know that this is very sexist, but it's true, we are we're a lot more.
Speaker 2: We need intimacy a lot more than we give credit for, i agree And it's not always sex. You know what I mean. Men think about sex, sex, sex It's not, it's the romantic nature, it's the touch, it's the cuddle, it's the ruffle on the back of the neck, it's the kiss on the forehead, particularly when things are changing and it's just that you're my constant. I need you to tell me this is okay. And when you've got a new baby in a house.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's difficult to do that and I know that that sounds different for a woman that's had a baby must think Jesus. I've got to do that for my husband as well. But when they're not sure of what's going on and things are changing, it's quite difficult. They don't know how to have that conversation. We don't teach them how to start that. Even more so, vast majority of fathers of a work-life including myself, kelly that when we had our eldest son, so when we had our first born, i looked at the situation and I don't mind admitting this and I've evaded it many times before I became a little bit jealous that I fell down the pecking order 100% And I thought, whoa, i don't like this because I used to be your priority and now I'm not, and I'm not sure. Well, i don't like this. This is not good. I said that to my wife verbatim.
Speaker 1: I said to her I feel like you're leaving me out and we had a really tough conversation Yeah like you got what you wanted. I feel now like I was the means to get you what you wanted, and now that you got a shiny, brand new toy, i don't matter anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot, man. That comes up 75% and I've sported a couple of foes and dents in the last few years and that comes up 75% of the time. And I even joke about this when I do lectures with university students in midwifery and nursing about the impact on paternal mental health. So father's mental health And we go. I hope there's no vegans listening to this. If there is, i apologize in advance.
Speaker 2: We meet as in my house and we go to, there's a local farm shop where we get our meat from. And he said to me once he said you've got seven. We must go there a lot because there's a lot of boys to see. Three times a week we're at the butcher's. And he said, if you've got seven boys, where do you come in the picking order? And I jumped and said, oh, i come, eight for me. And he says, if you've not got any pets, i says yeah, we've got a dog, so I come ninth.
Speaker 2: But I didn't joke about that 20 years ago. I found it really difficult to think hang on a minute, all that attention the world used to revolve around me And I know how selfish that sounds. But it's changing. We don't like change, human beings don't like change and men find it quite difficult. So there's lots going on that we don't teach. And then we have talked about intimacy and I don't want to take this down to crude or rude, but it's relationships stuff.
Speaker 2: It's important for parents is that you've got a dad, for example, that isn't feeling good about himself. He's finding this transition into parenting really difficult And even on the more extreme ends, if I've got fathers that have maybe had to go on to antidepressants. Now I'm not here to sit and say whether you should or whether you shouldn't. I think there's a place for everything. What you need if you're finding life difficult is you need a tool belt, because talking therapies on their own won't help you. Medication on their own won't help you. Exercise on its own won't help you. It's all of it in moderation that can help. And the factors of that is that sometimes you will get erectile dysfunction. You will become impotent. Things won't quite work in the same way, and added to that that when you become a father, as you go through that transition, your testosterone levels drop by up to a third to make you more accommodating, to deal with baby and be more nurturing and deal with the crying. So you've got less testosterone. You've probably got less nutrition because you're not eating the same diet as you were and you're not sleeping in the same capacity. So things might not work in the same way.
Speaker 2: If you don't know how to articulate that, because you're embarrassed in front of your partner, what she sometimes sees is that my body has changed. He's seen me give birth, he doesn't find me attractive anymore And you've got breakdown in communication because nobody taught these people how to have these conversations, because when we go to parent education, we teach you how to put a baby girl in a nappy on. My God, you're gonna figure that out at some point. You're gonna put a baby girl on wrong once or twice. You're gonna. If you've got little boys that we've been through, if you don't top the willy down and they pee up themselves, you only do that once or twice and you'll figure it out. We don't teach that change in relationship and that's where lots of couples break down and then you've got joint access.
Speaker 2: You've got less time with your children because nobody taught you how to navigate The parenting greatest thing we ever do in our life and I stand by that. I genuinely believe it. I'm very lucky, i agree. I live in a frat house. I live with my best friends. I live with my eight best friends. I'm very, very fortunate. I know that.
Speaker 2: But it's bloody tough, yes, and we're not prepared for the fact that the baptism into it is really difficult and everything changes and we just don't help parents enough in that area. I don't think, and we could do a lot of good by these sort of conversations on a wider scale. But you said that, yes, you're gonna have to pick up the slide. You know the dad that comes home from work and I say this to the moms or the partners that are listening, and it's oh, can you take the baby? because they cry all day and I've not had to go to the toilet or I've not had a shower, which most of the moms will have experienced, i'm sure And dad turns around and says, oh, we're not working all day, oh well, she's not being at this bar. You know, come on now. You know you are gonna have to pick up that slide.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But we don't necessarily so when we have dads in groups and we run the support groups that we run. These are the sort of things that you can word it a little bit differently. I'm really if you're a workman or a tradesman, for example, i'm a bit dirty, i'm a bit smelly, let me get a shower, then I'll take baby and you go and do you. You know, but we don't teach you how to have that conversation, because the first thing is, oh, i'm tired of being at work all day, and then boom, you've got an argument that didn't need to happen because both are primed to be on the defensive. It's a bit like when they get up in the morning and it becomes a competition for who's the most tired. You know, who had the less sleep during the night? you know, rather than just communicating, the fact that me, your parents, you're gonna be tired for the next 20 years just got accepted. It's just the way it is The next environment, the next town where we goن.
Speaker 2: One thing that I always stress in the work that I do is that people look at parents and we individualize parents, moms and dads, mom, mom, dad, dad, whatever it might be. We don't unite them enough, we don't bring them together as a couple, as a relationship, as the people that are going to have to navigate this crazy, wild journey that parenting is, and what we need to do is focus on the child. The child is the most important part, and what do children need? if they've got parents that are together in a relationship? They need two equally parents that are supported and mentally equipped to deal with what parenting challenges are going to come. You cannot do that by putting all of the pressure and all of the emphasis on one side of that relationship. It's not fair.
Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning into this conversation and for spending part of your day with us. And now here's the episode Check. All right, brother, won't you go ahead and start by please introducing yourself?
Speaker 2: Okay, so my name is Scott, my wife Sarah and I have got seven boys. My eldest is 20. My youngest is four, pretty much every couple of years in between, and we live in a place called Warwickshire, which is pretty much smack bang in the middle of England. I'm originally from Scotland, my wife is Irish, so my boys are what we call Celtic, so they're full of energy, full of testosterone, but full of fun. I work predominantly with fathers in a whole host of different ways, from peer support and guinatal programs. I work for charities that implement what we call father inclusion in predominantly maternity services here in the UK, trying to find better ways in which we can engage with them but also teaching not just services but fathers. They could be parents. You know I am a firm believer, kelly, that 50-50 parenting is very hard to achieve, and I'm under no illusion that in many, many families it's almost impossible to achieve 50-50 parenting, because I don't think life works in that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i think sometimes it's 70, 30, sometimes it's 60, 40, sometimes it's 90, 10. It's just helping families understand that there's so much that a father brings to the role. You know, and the impact they have on their child is massive And the more involved they can be from the beginning and the more interaction they have with their child, the research indicates that you know it has a lasting impact. You know children will be more likely, they will have better self-esteem, they will have sometimes higher IQs, they'll be more socially aware and they will go on to achieve more not always, but that's what statistic indicates by having that male carer. That is more nurturing rather than just the disciplinary disciplinary of what we used to see fathers before.
Speaker 2: As a 40-year-old, my generation of how fathers were is obviously a little bit different And the one thing that I'm trying to push back against a little bit is this terminology of modern fathers. Kelly know that I have been a father for 20 years. I've always been, or tried to be, as hands-on, as involved as I possibly can And I've constantly been labeled as a modern father. And it's nothing modern about it. Fathers have always been capable of it and they've always been engaged and supportive and nurturing. The difference is now it's more acceptable. So we can't keep saying it's the fathers that are wanting to do it more, because that's not necessarily the case. It's that society's learning to accept it. So that's a bit of a long introduction, but yeah, that's me and that's what I'm trying to do.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you making that or bringing that to the conversation this early on, because I've also been caught up in this notion that the things that I'm seeing in the fatherhood space, it's something that fathers are beginning to do now. But I remember when I first started this podcast before I started bringing on guests from all over the place I went into a little solo series looking at the historical portrayal of fatherhood from several eras, at least here in the United States, and what I came across really surprised me. But I just didn't know how to process it at the time. And that is in the colonial periods because of the way that society was organized. It was more of an agriculture, agrarian society And so the work was done on the farm and the home type stuff. And so dad was there And actually dad was the one who took on a lot of these responsibilities to work with the kids, particularly the boys.
Speaker 1: So dad would wake up and his sons or his son would go and help on the farm, milk the cows, you know, plow the field, that kind of stuff, while mom would be home with the daughters and keeping the home. But the father had a hands on role because of the way that the society was structured. Now there's also the sense of that father being the authoritarian, because that society was predominantly male dominated, right, and so he was the authority. You know, dad was the one who was being served first at dinner time. He had his chair that nobody else could sit on because that was like his throne. You know what I mean like that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: But then what surprised me and what I've been able to process through over the past several years, is that the cycle has now come back to the father, who is in many cases being encouraged to but, to your point, has always been doing that, and it is the structure of society that now makes it seem more acceptable. But you're absolutely right. Like that has been happening, as far as my research indicates, since even as far back, if not further, as colonial times. So the notion of this revolution is not really revolution. I was talking to someone not too long ago who, instead of saying a fatherhood revolution, his way of saying it is a fatherhood evolution, which indicates that the role has just continued to evolve, but at the core of it it's been the same thing, right? I mean it's been the same thing. So I really appreciate you bringing that into the conversation early on.
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that you've done that research And it's true. It's absolutely true. We can't argue with history. We can't argue with facts, kelly, we just can't.
Speaker 2: And one of the examples that I use quite a lot is John Lennon. John Lennon from the Beatles. Everybody is aware of John Lennon in terms of what he did for music, but in the late 70s he was a stay at home dad. He took five years away from being the John Lennon that everybody knew to raise his son. Like I said, it's not a new concept. You've took it back considerably further. And I'm using that because that's the example that I use, because it's someone that people are aware of.
Speaker 2: And I was talking to my sons, my sons. You might not know in the States as much, but there's a big band here in the 90s that were called Oasis And they had a few big tunes. In America They've got a song called Wonderwall. Everybody seems to know. Wonderwall is the main tune that Oasis did And they were big fans of John Lennon And a lot of the music was built on the Beatles, which a lot of rock and roll bands have been built off the back of Oasis. And it was my sons. So that conversation. That's why John Lennon came into it, because they're big fans.
Speaker 2: We got talking about music and why I do the things that I do. I have these conversations with my boys quite a lot. We home educate, you see. So we're trying to do a lot of real life teaching And these are the things that we talk about. It's parenting, it's skills, it's relationship building and how we do these things. And I mean, you're absolutely right, it's not a new concept, it's just something that, because of social media, i think it's got a large part to do with it, and I'm not criticizing social media because you and I would never have met with it, absolutely. So it is very, very powerful, but we see things a little bit differently And we see celebrities doing things and it just makes things a little bit cooler to talk about.
Speaker 2: It's okay, it's in mental health. We're quite fortunate that here in the UK, for men in particular, tyson Fury, the heavyweight boxer he came out a couple of years ago put a bit more than that now And he brought out books and he talked about his struggles with mental health and the problems that he'd had, but he highlighted the fact that it was weeks, maybe even days, after he won the World Heavyweight Championship, that he has rock bottom. You know, when you would expect him to be on top of the world, he really wasn't And he was really struggling. And him talking about that and putting it in books and going on the news and being on social media, my inbox for particularly young men that were looking to talk about their problems and their struggles started to increase in volume because it had been made okay to talk about it by someone that was seen on the statue that Tyson Fury is. And when it comes to parenting, when it comes to how we're supposed to do stuff, we do look to social media and what we class as celebrities to make things okay.
Speaker 2: So when I see a celebrity dad like I think it was about three or four years ago now you've got Daniel Craig, who is James Bond carry any son in a baby sling you know, all of a sudden, the baby sling conversations that I have increased.
Speaker 2: You know you've got more organisations wanting to know how they could target more dads, because if James Bond can wear a baby in a baby sling, then it must be okay. Some of the criticism that he received for doing that by the likes of Piers Morgan, who I know you're aware of in the states. He said that James Bond should not be doing that and that could do a little bit of damage, sorry to particularly younger, impressionable fathers, but on the whole, it was with Daniel Craig. You know, james Bond can carry his baby in a sling around the supermarket then so can I. So it does really, really help, and I think that's the only thing that's changed. We've got more exposure and we see more people doing it and we even see our peers, so we see fathers that are posting on their Instagram pages of taking their kids to the park, which encourages other dads to take their kids to the park. That's the only thing that's changed from my point of view is we've just normalised it a bit more.
Speaker 1: I obviously know your story and your background because the first time I heard about you and we met was you had a conversation with one of our mutual contacts that we met on Instagram, travis, and you were featured on his podcast, the Therapy Dads podcast, and I was really moved and struck by your story And then I reached out to you and so this conversation that we're having now has been in the works for at least two years now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but later than never.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the reasons why I have been wanting to have you on the podcast and I'm so thankful that now is the time I'm in a space myself where I am, i've stumbled upon, as a result of my personal experience, the need for education in spaces that cater heavily towards moms, for good reasons, at the expense of dads, because of what my wife and I went through with our journey of many miscarriages. So that's a journey that I've embarked on recently, but you've been in this space for quite some time and other ways, particularly mental health and perinatal care and those sort of spaces. So I want to thank you for members of my audience who don't know your story, and I don't want you to abbreviate it, but if you want to feel free, give us a sense of who Scott Mer is and the experiences that shapes the work that you've been doing, for however long you've been doing it.
Speaker 2: Okay, i'll do that, but what I will say from the beginning is that the who's got mirrors. So if you've got anybody listening to this, this may be a little bit younger, just starting out in life, maybe just starting out in their journey into parenthood, and younger men particular. I like to stress this fact that up before T1 in two months time, i'm just starting to figure out who's got mirrors And so if you don't know when you're a little bit younger, that's okay. You know it's a process, it's a journey. We are constantly evolving And we sometimes live to within the structures of what we think a man should be. And it took me a very long time to lose those shackles. And I speak to my boys, i speak to their friends, i speak to people within my community, particularly younger men and teenage boys, about all the everything they see about masculinity and what a man is supposed to be and what is right and what is wrong, and it's very difficult to know who you're supposed to be And it took me a very long time to understand that I'm supposed to be me And I had to. I had to lose who I thought I was, to find out who I'm actually supposed to be, and I think that that is a process that sometimes takes a long time And I always like to stress that when you get asked who am I? because it takes a long time to figure out who you are And some days you're different to what you are the next day. But in terms of the journey into this world, i said sort of spoiler a lot.
Speaker 2: My wife and I have got seven boys And I always joke about this and say that, yes, we do have a television and no one that have any more. But my wife is Irish. You know, big family was always sort of on the cards. I came from a smaller family that didn't really do everything together And I met my wife, sarah at 16, first day of college here in the UK starts at 16. We met on induction day. We've been together ever since, so 25 years in September And the first time I was sort of introduced to her family was this big Irish Christmas Where everybody comes around and you've got family coming from everywhere And I just thought it was growing. I just really really liked being around people that they might not spend every day together, they might not see each other every week.
Speaker 2: They might only see each other twice a year, but when they get together it's just magic And I thought I really want that. We really really want that. So we pretty much discussed four or five is what we thought we'd have in terms of children. Never in a million years did I think they would all be boys At 18,. We got married. I'd gone off to join the military, i joined the army, we got married at 18. And for anybody that knows the UK, my claim to fame is that my wife and I got married in Edinburgh Castle. So I'm literally a prince And yeah, so that's it. That's as good as it gets. That's my claim. But yeah, we got married in the castle And it's a perk that is only reserved for military personnel. So it's pretty cool. Yeah, we pretty much embarked quite quickly, and you mentioned Mesh carriage.
Speaker 2: We've lost what would have been our first, and a lot of the work that I've tried to do speaking to men is that I carried a lot of guilt with that, really, because I'd gone off to join the military And I convinced myself that that stress, that worry of me being away and we've been separated for the first time since we've been 16. We had done everything together. Like I said, we went to college together, we spent most nights together, we were just best friends, as well as everything else And all of a sudden I was gone And I convinced myself that that baby loss was my fault. I sometimes try and highlight the fact I don't like using the word as such mess carries, because I think that implies that somebody did something wrong. You know, if you've got miscarriage of justice, that means that somebody, something, has been accused of something wrong. I think it puts the emphasis on the person carrying the baby has done something wrong. That baby wasn't a viable pregnancy. I don't think that's necessarily helpful all of the time, but from our point of view that was our first journey into what would have been parenthood, and then what is now my eldest. He was a suspected miscarriage. At the time They'd be using that word, but that's what they deemed it as, and it was the sort of blasé attitude that we were on the young. If this baby didn't make it, there's plenty of time to have another one, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2: And I was on military duty at the time. I got phone calls to say that Sarah had been took to hospital, so I rushed over and got to the hospital and I wasn't allowed in to where she was actually being being triaged. And when I asked why, they were told that she was with the doctor and that I would be allowed in after she'd finished. And this upset me because I wanted to be making sure she was OK And I stressed that I was in military uniform. So when you're in a hospital you've got to conduct yourself a certain way anyway, but everyone's looking at you when you're in military combat And I thought I don't want to get too upset. But I was quite upset And the following comment was your wife's miscarriage doesn't concern you, mr Mayor. Is what the nurse said? So that we are going back 20 years? you know, but that was so. I was left outside for about 15 minutes And I didn't know.
Speaker 1: But let me pause you right there. Though That's going back 20 years. In many regards, that hasn't changed, scott, no, and that's problematic.
Speaker 2: It's a big problem.
Speaker 1: I just, i just wanted to, i just wanted to highlight that.
Speaker 2: I would like you to jump in as much as you can. So in that 20 years I say this quite a lot that in many ways we've moved forward in lots of areas. In many ways we haven't Right, And that's the frustration. That's probably the part that keeps me awake at night sometimes is that we're just not moving forward quickly enough. And I see the impact that it has on me And you know I read the messages I run the groups. I see the pain that it causes And we just don't seem to address it quickly enough.
Speaker 2: And then so from that point on I maybe changed my view a little bit on on services and, let's say, a young dad And my. It was a very, very high risk pregnancy And there was a lot of stress. My son made it very traumatic delivery in the end And he had to have sorry for anybody listening if this is upsetting, But it's relevant So he had what we call Vauntus here, which is like a suction cap when the baby stuck on the way out So it can just shape the head. Yes, And so we talk about it now because that humerus became very powerful in my house when things go wrong. We put a baby hat on him and it didn't touch his hairline, It just sat on the lump on top.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a cone. Like a cone head. There's a movie from the night, yeah.
Speaker 2: That's what it was like, but it was really sore. So his sort of introduction to the world was painkillers, paracets, more cow poll we have here, and he was in a lot of pain. He was quite discomfort And I was convinced that there's going to be an impact. He's going to be brain damaged. It can't look like that and just go away, right. And nobody really explained it to us that it was going to be okay And turned out it's fine. You know, after a few months, maybe four months at a push, you'd never have known there was ever a problem. It all did settle back down, but it was holding him for the first time. It was awful because his face was swollen, his head was swollen And nobody really explained to you what was going on, and not looking for sympathies to highlight in the points. And then my next son was born And we this is before YouTube, right.
Speaker 1: So you're trying to figure out as you go. It's crazy to think that there was a time before YouTube. It's true. I said that to my boys.
Speaker 2: You do realize we didn't have tip top And so you're trying to figure out what's the best way to do things. And maybe there's a maybe. That's a shame we don't have that anymore, i think. But one of the things I came up with was that when we bring the new baby home, i've got to help my son be prepared for it, and we spoke to various different people And this was a time where we had something called Shrp and Nanny And she was always giving this advice on how to parent and my views on parenting didn't quite align with hers, so there wasn't really anywhere to get parenting advice.
Speaker 2: So I bought a doll and a pram and a little baby set and I could show my son. He had to, he could replicate what I was doing And he would bath baby. My wife breastfed So he would give his baby doll to mommy. Mommy would feed the baby, baby would go to bed And it helped him understand the process of what was going on, and one day in particular. But we didn't have boy dolls. We couldn't get one. It was everything was pink. You can now get little boy dolls. So this is the end of the video. Local nurse we call them health visitors. Here They come out with a big home like a district nurse almost like, and she was looking at my son and she said are you okay with that? And I said what do you mean? And I was in the military at the time And she said your son's playing with girls toys. This is what she said, right?
Speaker 2: And this is 17 years ago And I said what do you mean girls, toys? Because well, he's playing with dolls and prams. And I said to her if that's what you think of him, what do you think of me? Because where do you think he's learned that from? You know, he's watched me with his baby brother and he think I'm actually quite proud of the fact that he thinks that's okay, that that's what men do or boys do, and that opinion pretty much shunned off, based on fathers and what fathers were supposed to do.
Speaker 2: So then rest of the boys not so many particular traumas until my last three. We had many complications towards the latter stages, which were all born by a cesarean, and my wife was very unwell for number six and seven and people they've got will have their opinions that maybe you should have stopped. But particularly with number six it was. There was all sorts of complications. They were both critically ill at one point And we needed to understand what had gone wrong And it took us 18 months to almost two years to get an explanation and an understanding for what was wrong. And in that point number seven was conceived And we went through a very anxious pregnancy on both sides, particularly mine, because I was terrified something really bad was going to happen to Cedar.
Speaker 2: And services just didn't know how to engage with me. They wouldn't talk to me because it wasn't happening to me. It's not my body, it's not my pregnancy, even though in my mind it's still my baby, and that's your wife And it's my wife says, the two most precious commodities I have, and you won't let me discuss.
Speaker 2: It created a lot of anxiety for me And I didn't really have anxiety before And and oh, that's not true I hadn't realized I'd experienced anxiety before, because I didn't really know enough about anxiety And I knew I'd had issues before. It was always. I thought it was more depression And I struggled a little bit. I left the electric injuries and I suffer from chronic pain And there's a lot of connections between depression and pain And it just all masked up. That that's why I was experiencing, But it's probably anxiety that I'd experienced for a little bit longer than I actually realized. But this is where it came to a head.
Speaker 2: My youngest was born. That was this pregnancy with anxiety. He was neonatal baby, He was born premature, Couldn't breathe by himself And at the same time my wife became critically ill with sepsis after he was born. And it was in that realization that I might lose both of these. And at one point that looked very, very likely And I remember sort of setting with my youngest who was in the incubator, couldn't hold him And my wife wasn't well enough to come and see him.
Speaker 2: Nobody really speaks to you in a neonatal unit. They don't really know what to say or what to do. It's a very strange place to find yourself And I remember sitting looking at him and they said that if he makes it through the first night he's got a better chance. But the odds are pretty much stacked against him And I remember sort of sitting there watching him through the glass. You can't even touch him And I'm begging him almost He's only ever been able to describe it That just everything you've got the man. Just get through tonight and I'll do the rest. Just get through tonight And I'll fight as much as I can. I'll fight however I can, But for tonight this is on you.
Speaker 2: I'm not religious. My wife is Catholic, which is Irish, you know. So she's Catholic. I'm not religious at all.
Speaker 2: But this is probably, in this moment, when they were both so critically unwell, The only times I've ever prayed in my life, Because I knew that I needed somebody much more superior than me. I needed the powers a lot stronger than I was, And I now have a new affiliation for the universe and how it provides And there is something greater than us. I don't necessarily believe in anything in particular, But you know, I asked the universe to help me and I believe they did. You know, because they both made it And they tell the story and it broke me.
Speaker 2: It absolutely fundamentally, mentally, put me in a way that I've never been able to articulate. I don't know. We put it down to trauma, PTSD, You can list off all these different things, but I know that was the point where I thought stop the world, I've got to get off. I just I cannot take any more of this. It's too much. And I didn't know where to go. I didn't know how to speak to. There wasn't really great support for fathers. Services didn't know how to interact or to speak to me.
Speaker 1: Interesting. you say that because at a neonatal setting isn't there. I don't know if how things are in your setting or how things were in your setting. how old is your youngest son now? He's four, he's four, so this was four years ago. I've been working in a pediatric setting that also has a pretty large neonatal unit And within one of the services that is offered there is psychology or psychiatrists. you know, come out around and speak with parents and provide support. There's also spiritual care services, of which I'm a part of, and there are other psychosocial services available. Was there anything like that in the unit that you were on, or maybe did anyone even allude to those services possibly being available for you as a dad?
Speaker 2: No, no to both, and unfortunately, the way that things are particularly here is that you have different grades or different levels of hospitals, a bit like your trauma units and smaller community hospitals. Yes, we have something similar in our maternity set up, so we have larger hospitals, which are normally in our case anyway is classed as a university hospital, so it's a teaching hospital, so it has better facilities, better funded, better staff. I work in one of those, ok, and so ours is a more what you would class and maybe a community hospital. So it's a smaller unit and less support. Not criticizing the staff, but we didn't have anything more than just the staff that were on offer, i see. And then we've now the local hospital, everything you're describing. There's some wonderful staff that have fought to put that sort of thing in place and they now do have support and screening.
Speaker 2: Today, ironically, i had a meeting with the head of the local neonatal unit to put on support sessions for fathers in particular, and I've got babies in neonatal unit where they can come and have a chat with other parents. I'll sort of co-facilitate it with a healthcare professional have a coffee and a chat, whatever it might be, just because it's in some units. What they will do is if you've got a maternity unit and the neonatal unit is within that maternity hospital, it will run things for all parents. Now, if you're a neonatal parent, you don't really want to mix with people that are taking their babies home tomorrow that didn't have a traumatic experience. It's quite upsetting, so you really want to speak to other people that have been through it, and particularly with men.
Speaker 2: What I've found from the research that I've done is we are quite tribal. We know that, but it's men. Men want they will feel comfortable somewhere where they know the men have been before them, yes, and it's that they're not necessarily the first one. So when they go into so when I do work with particular maternity units or where they will go for scans, for example, or family centres don't just have images of mum and baby on the wall, you know. Don't just have a waiting room that's pink and purple. You know it's not rocket science, but you know, have a more neutral colour on the walls. Have some pictures of dads, but not just any particular dad. You know that you've got different demographics, so different coloured dads, bearded, tattooed dads with earrings, same sex couples. Just have everything that you're going to get a family, because men will feel much more comfortable if they think somebody else has gone through this doorway first, rather than the fact that they're sat in a room that's full of pictures of mum and baby and everything's pink and they're going to think I'm not supposed to be here And if you don't, then engage with them.
Speaker 2: They sit in a room that is full of mumins, things, and they sit in a room where you don't speak to them. The likelihood of them coming back is very slim. Yes, and then what happens is well, dad doesn't engage, dad doesn't come, or he did, but you missed the ball because you did not know how to engage with him, and they will blame the dad. So there is work being done to try and correct that. I can see you smiling, so I take it that's something that you share an opinion on.
Speaker 1: What you're saying is so spot on. I have been on, i've been in the middle of this conversation. In large part There's the sense of dad doesn't show up until the baby is being born. I mean, i was having a conversation on this platform with a really close friend of mine who said that about her husband. Right, that he only showed up because she works in the field and she was able to relate to him all of the information pertinent because she is a professional In this field, so she would go to her own appointment. Her husband wouldn't show up because when she got home she would tell him. So he only showed up when it was date of delivery and he was there in the delivery room. But I said to her I was like cool, now imagine the couple that shows up and from the gate they're pregnant. They're both excited. Dude, that's how I was when my wife told me she was pregnant the first time. First time we were excited. And now imagine both mom and dad shows to this place and they are full of excitement. And the moment they step into this medical space, mom gets 99.99% of the attention, which is duly needed because you know she's the one carrying the baby And then homie just gets left behind And, to your point, he walks in and what he sees is pictures of mom and baby.
Speaker 1: He sees, you know, the colors are. I mean, everything is communicating. This is a space that you're walking into, that you don't belong. You don't belong here. She's actually the one, who is the one, who is who this space is catered for. Her comfort is the one that we are primarily and, quite honestly, absolutely concerned about. Yours not necessarily. You know what. In fact, we're going to call you the support person. Oh, that's how we're going to demote it. We're going to call you the support person, which is a broad category that can be filled by literally anybody else that's in this room or that's outside on the street. You're just the support person. So to me, that's like, oh okay, that communicates something to me On a deeper subconscious level. That communicates to me as the husband or to me as the partner, that, oh, okay, so when I come here, i need to make sure that it is her voice that is heard. I mean, i need to make sure that you know she continues to get all of the attention And if I'm feeling something, if I'm thinking something, if I have a partner, if I have a perspective or a point of view or anything like that, i'm just going to keep that to myself. Maybe we'll talk about it on the ride back home or later on at dinner time, but here in this space, now I feel I don't want to say intimidated, because that's more of a subjective thing But now I don't feel invited into a space or a conversation that could be happening, because everything in the space is communicating that this is not my space to be in. So then, how does that? So that's part of it.
Speaker 1: The other side, then, has been taking the guy who has now experienced all of that And, you know, because of the discomfort or for whatever other reason Scott, for whatever other reason he doesn't show up. Isn't it funny that there will still be conversations amongst the people who work in that space in terms of how they look at that woman. I wonder if she's a single mom, where is that deadbeat guy? Why is she here by herself, particularly in these high risk maternity spaces? Why does she come here by herself? What is he doing? He must not care, he must not this And all of these sets of assumptions that are created, but nobody stepping back and saying how are we contributing to the discomfort of this guy. And now this is clearly me speaking out of, you know, not necessarily hypothesis, but obviously, like in my personal experience, i felt very comfortable in those spaces with my wife, my wife. But my mentality going into those spaces was precisely to counter the way that the staff, the space itself and what you're talking about, the decor, the decorum of those spaces is still communicating something. And so I was like I'm going to show up because I need people to see my wife show up with, not just anybody her husband, and I would make it a point to let people know that I was not just the support person, i am her husband, father of this child that's in her womb. It is this guy sperm that made that woman pregnant, ain't nobody else. I'm claiming that for myself. And the last thing I want to say is it goes even further into the postnatal area, where recently I took my infant to his two month checkup appointment And at the first month my wife was the one who went in with him. This time he was getting vaccinated and my wife was like I just can't do it. You go in with him, babe. I ain't got no problem, i'll go in with him. So I go in with him.
Speaker 1: I am handed an iPad for a screening or survey or whatever the case is on the front page of the iPad In order to begin the survey or the screening. There are two options to access the survey. In a little box It just says mother. In the other box it says I am not the mother of this child. Given that I'm not the mother of this child, i am this child's father. I hit I am not the mother of this child. The screen then changes to the next screen that says thank you so much for responding to this question and it reset to the homepage.
Speaker 1: I didn't get a screening. I couldn't access the survey because I chose the option that best suited who I was. There was no father. There was no nothing. It was simply are you the mom or are you not the mom? And if you're not the mom, then obviously we don't think that you can answer any of these questions because you know you don't know anything. Mama knows best. Mama's the only one who can answer these questions.
Speaker 1: So now, if I was a first time father and I don't have any of these thoughts that I have in my head and I am completely feeling overwhelmed by this newborn and life and, whatever the case is, i'm going through my circumstances. How is this not communicating to me that I am ill equipped To even be able to answer questions about my own child? Isn't the very computer programming Reflecting the assumption of the people who made it that it is only the mom who is? I mean, call me crazy, brother, call me crazy, but all of these things are sending clear messages to fathers You are not it, you're not equal by virtue of you being a dad and Dude. It's so ironic. It is so ironic because, if you take those same principles, these are the same principles that are being highlighted in different types of conversations. Let me explain.
Speaker 1: So, by virtue of me being a woman, you're saying that I can't be the CEO of a corporation Just because I'm a woman. Isn't that what our society is fighting against, has been fighting against? To be like no, someone's gender should not be the determining factors of why they can or can't do a certain job, Fulfill their certain role, right? Isn't that what the whole glass ceiling thing is about? So we have these concepts that we're like yeah, this is wrong in these areas, but in one of the most fundamental fabrics of human community. In terms of parenting, it's okay, because mama knows best. And that guy, yeah, he's just a sperm donor, yeah, he's just a support person, yeah, he don't know anything. And to me that's baffling, bro, it is so baffling. So, yeah, i got a couple of opinions about that. Spot on.
Speaker 2: All of that is absolute and it's funny because obviously you're sat in the States, we're here in the UK. Same problems, doesn't matter where you go, same problems. And The vast majority of the work that I do on my day-to-day basis, working with healthcare professionals and government organizations, is trying to address that. And the one thing that I say that you've just articulated perfectly We have mother and partner is what we see here, and for a whole host of reasons, and obviously one of them is that we're trying to be inclusive of all families and the lgbqt plus community, which we're for a family, as a family. And one thing that I always stress in the work that I do is people look at Parents and we individualize parents, moms and dads, mom, mom, dad, dad, whatever it might be. We don't unite them enough, we don't bring them together Enough. We don't bring them together as a couple, as a relationship, as the people that are going to have to navigate this crazy Wild journey.
Speaker 2: That parenting is yes, and what we need to do is focus on the child. The child is the most important part, and what do children need if they've got Parents that are together in a relationship? They need two equally parents that are supported and mentally equipped to deal with what parenting challenges are going to come. You cannot do that by putting all of the pressure and all of the emphasis on one side of that relationship. It's not fair. So what? so when we look at the fact that dads are not engaged? everything you've said bang on me and It's the same sort of stuff that I push for here, but the way in which I sometimes try and explain it to people that don't want to listen is that you cannot keep putting all of that on mom. It's not right, it's not fair. Have to make all the decisions, all of the pressure, and then she's already got the pressure, particularly in that post natal period. How she feels, how she looks, is she going to go back to work? Is she not going to go back to work? Is she going to breastfeed? Is she not going to breastfeed? how they're going to sleep with the baby all these conversations are just thrown at mom, as if the other Person doesn't go to clue.
Speaker 2: Well, the other person might not have an understanding of it because nobody's explained, nobody spoke to them and believe it or not, which maybe you can attest to, i don't know but In the market research that I've done with fathers, is that not many men will sit around the pub with their friends on a Friday After work and talk about being fathers in the future.
Speaker 2: It's not a conversation that comes up a lot and and they might not have that relationship with their own father, it might not be a conversation they've had, so that we're bringing them into a world that they may be not had a lot to do with, and then we don't engage with them and the only way that I've been able to describe it, kelly, is it's a little bit. If you've got, you've got children, obviously. So you've got a little one and they're looking for a snack and they're hungry And you're making dinner and you know that dinner is going to be ready in 10, 15 minutes time And you give them that snack and then they don't eat their dinner and you blame them for not eating their dinner.
Speaker 2: That is what we do? That is exactly what we're doing. We're not engaging, we're not giving them the respect that they deserve and then we punish them for not having the information that we didn't give them in the first place. And when it comes to dads, the research indicates and so So many surveys, so many research pieces, so much evidence to back this up that it has to, we have to use the language Dad or father, because what happens is, if you use the support person or you use partner, what that does from the very, very beginning is that identifies you as the relationship with the person that's giving birth. So it's not identifying you to your relationship to the child. So from the very beginning, you're an inferior parent. That is the message that we give you.
Speaker 2: 100 your opinion doesn't matter. What you want to do doesn't matter. As long as you support that person that gives birth. Then what happens Particularly here in the uk is they will say right, your job is to look after mom. Make sure mom's okay when she goes home. Make sure she's not overdoing it, particularly if she's maybe had a caesarean or whatever the Johnny might be. Don't let her do x, y and z and make sure she's spending time bonding with baby. Keep an eye on her emotions. Make sure she's eating and drinking right. Fantastic, men are very practical thinkers. We're very logical to the way that we're programmed to be as hunter-gatherers, so if you tell us to do something, that is what we will do and that becomes the category.
Speaker 1: That just becomes the thing. As long as I can check these things off, i've done my job exactly.
Speaker 2: And then Somebody comes around friend or family, nurse, or you go to the clinic or whatever it might be, and it's okay. Who's doing nighttime feeds? mom says I'm doing nighttime feeds, okay, who does bath time? I do bath time, all right, okay. All right, okay, who does this and that, what I'm doing it? and then they will say if dad is there, um, or if they're in the home for a visit which we get here, um, why are you not doing x, y and z with baby? And dad will say but you didn't tell me you do that. You told me look after mom. So I'm making sure.
Speaker 2: And we laugh because it's true, man, right. So you told me. So I'm going to work, which is I'm taking care of my family, which is what I've been told to do by society. Um, if I am at home, i am doing the cooking or doing the cleaning or doing the shopping. I'm making sure she's comfortable, i'm making sure she's got everything that she needs, making sure she's attending appointments and whatever. It makes sure she's comfortable when she's breastfeeding And she's got drinks and snacks and she's got all these. That's what you told me to do. I know you're punishing me for doing it because I'm not doing what you didn't tell me to do. And here and here's what?
Speaker 1: here's what we're not saying, scott. We're not saying that those things are Bad, that those things shouldn't be done. We're not saying that, as a husband, as a partner, that you shouldn't take on those responsibilities in order to support, because You and I both know, and everybody else who's listening to this who's a parent You started off by saying this in the beginning 50, 50 parenting is a fable. It's an, it's an absolute fable, particularly in those early days of welcoming in a newborn, whether it's. I mean, i reached out on In general after we brought our infant baby, our new baby, home and I was like I need help figuring out how to navigate having a toddler and a newborn, and you were one of the people who reached out and gave me some great advice. So Here's an instance where I've already gone through bringing a newborn into the home phase once with my firstborn, and now I'm doing it again and I still needed help. You went through that seven times, my guy And I'm sure all seven times. Seven times you needed to figure something different from the previous time. So it's not like we're saying that Those things aren't important because it is just strictly Survival mode. I mean, it is just strictly survival mode checklist. Galore, hey, is this happening? is this kid fed? is this one? How many ever children you have? we just need to make sure that we hit the key points And then we can go to sleep, if we can get an ounce of sleep. So those things are crucial, those things are necessary, those things are absolutely Important, to quote the infomercials. But wait, there's more And it's that more part that is not being Highlighted.
Speaker 1: I mean, i always say this, particularly in the realm of pregnancy loss and the support that Moms get all of the pamphlets, all of the numbers they can call, all, i mean just all of the support, even postnatally, all of the hate in this recent Birth that my wife, you know, my, my, our infant, the social worker comes to the room and she's talking to my wife. She has a whole paper of Resources and numbers and back and front that she hands over to my wife And then graciously walks out the door. Man, i got nothing, my friend. There was no pamphlet for me, there was no resource for me, there was no number for me. It was all, you know, just the nod like oh, you're dad, oh, hey, hi, how you doing.
Speaker 1: And then, so listen, you know, lactation support all of that stuff. Obviously, i'm not producing milk, so I don't need lactation support. Right, like? it's perfectly fine for her to get a whole encyclopedia worth of resources Yes, give that to her. But, man, one of the most important things that a woman, a mom, could have after having a child or after experiencing some trauma in childbearing, is an equipped husband, male partner, who is able to not only know how to process his own stuff, because in learning how to process his own stuff and gaining the support himself will be in a better place to also partner with her and supporting her, as she should be partnering with him to support him. Because, guess what, we're both going through A tough time.
Speaker 2: Oh, mate, yeah again. Could not agree any more if I tried. And that goes back to the point we individualized, we don't unite. It's something that I've said quite a lot. We need to go back to school, really, and go back to a much younger age and we teach communication skills, how to be in a relationship, and that's not just with partners but with friends, but also with ourselves. You know how to be in a relationship with ourselves. We're stuck with ourselves And it's a bit like I've said this to my sons before if you had a friend and when I talk about mental health I use this analogy if you had a friend that every time they said that they were gonna do something, or I'll meet you at the gym tomorrow, and they didn't turn up, and then you do it again and they didn't turn up.
Speaker 2: Or we'll go for that lunch on Saturday and they didn't do it, or next Sunday we'll go for a cycle on the bikes, and they didn't turn up You'd start to lose confidence and you'd lose faith in that friend of we. But we do that to ourselves, yeah, because the diet's always gonna start on Monday and it doesn't. And we're always gonna go to the gym tomorrow, and sometimes we don't and we always criticize ourselves, so we don't teach how to be in that relationship with ourselves and how to treat ourselves and be kind to ourselves, how to manage expectations because I say this quite a lot when it comes to parenting Expectations is the absolute enemy for reality, because how we think parenting is going to go is always very different to how it actually goes, and the only perfect parents you're ever gonna meet in life are the people that haven't done it yet, because they've all got wonderful views and opinions on how it's gonna be and it doesn't go like that. It's very, very difficult. We're not prepared for that and I see relationships that break down all too often because they just weren't prepared for that little wobble when they bring a baby home for the first time and the fact that particularly men and I know that this is very sexist, but it's true, we are we're a lot more.
Speaker 2: We need intimacy a lot more than we give credit for, i agree And it's not always sex. You know what I mean. Men think about sex, sex, sex It's not, it's the romantic nature, it's the touch, it's the cuddle, it's the ruffle on the back of the neck, it's the kiss on the forehead, particularly when things are changing and it's just that you're my constant. I need you to tell me this is okay. And when you've got a new baby in a house.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's difficult to do that and I know that that sounds different for a woman that's had a baby must think Jesus. I've got to do that for my husband as well. But when they're not sure of what's going on and things are changing, it's quite difficult. They don't know how to have that conversation. We don't teach them how to start that. Even more so, vast majority of fathers of a work-life including myself, kelly that when we had our eldest son, so when we had our first born, i looked at the situation and I don't mind admitting this and I've evaded it many times before I became a little bit jealous that I fell down the pecking order 100% And I thought, whoa, i don't like this because I used to be your priority and now I'm not, and I'm not sure. Well, i don't like this. This is not good. I said that to my wife verbatim.
Speaker 1: I said to her I feel like you're leaving me out and we had a really tough conversation Yeah like you got what you wanted. I feel now like I was the means to get you what you wanted, and now that you got a shiny, brand new toy, i don't matter anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot, man. That comes up 75% and I've sported a couple of foes and dents in the last few years and that comes up 75% of the time. And I even joke about this when I do lectures with university students in midwifery and nursing about the impact on paternal mental health. So father's mental health And we go. I hope there's no vegans listening to this. If there is, i apologize in advance.
Speaker 2: We meet as in my house and we go to, there's a local farm shop where we get our meat from. And he said to me once he said you've got seven. We must go there a lot because there's a lot of boys to see. Three times a week we're at the butcher's. And he said, if you've got seven boys, where do you come in the picking order? And I jumped and said, oh, i come, eight for me. And he says, if you've not got any pets, i says yeah, we've got a dog, so I come ninth.
Speaker 2: But I didn't joke about that 20 years ago. I found it really difficult to think hang on a minute, all that attention the world used to revolve around me And I know how selfish that sounds. But it's changing. We don't like change, human beings don't like change and men find it quite difficult. So there's lots going on that we don't teach. And then we have talked about intimacy and I don't want to take this down to crude or rude, but it's relationships stuff.
Speaker 2: It's important for parents is that you've got a dad, for example, that isn't feeling good about himself. He's finding this transition into parenting really difficult And even on the more extreme ends, if I've got fathers that have maybe had to go on to antidepressants. Now I'm not here to sit and say whether you should or whether you shouldn't. I think there's a place for everything. What you need if you're finding life difficult is you need a tool belt, because talking therapies on their own won't help you. Medication on their own won't help you. Exercise on its own won't help you. It's all of it in moderation that can help. And the factors of that is that sometimes you will get erectile dysfunction. You will become impotent. Things won't quite work in the same way, and added to that that when you become a father, as you go through that transition, your testosterone levels drop by up to a third to make you more accommodating, to deal with baby and be more nurturing and deal with the crying. So you've got less testosterone. You've probably got less nutrition because you're not eating the same diet as you were and you're not sleeping in the same capacity. So things might not work in the same way.
Speaker 2: If you don't know how to articulate that, because you're embarrassed in front of your partner, what she sometimes sees is that my body has changed. He's seen me give birth, he doesn't find me attractive anymore And you've got breakdown in communication because nobody taught these people how to have these conversations, because when we go to parent education, we teach you how to put a baby girl in a nappy on. My God, you're gonna figure that out at some point. You're gonna put a baby girl on wrong once or twice. You're gonna. If you've got little boys that we've been through, if you don't top the willy down and they pee up themselves, you only do that once or twice and you'll figure it out. We don't teach that change in relationship and that's where lots of couples break down and then you've got joint access.
Speaker 2: You've got less time with your children because nobody taught you how to navigate The parenting greatest thing we ever do in our life and I stand by that. I genuinely believe it. I'm very lucky, i agree. I live in a frat house. I live with my best friends. I live with my eight best friends. I'm very, very fortunate. I know that.
Speaker 2: But it's bloody tough, yes, and we're not prepared for the fact that the baptism into it is really difficult and everything changes and we just don't help parents enough in that area. I don't think, and we could do a lot of good by these sort of conversations on a wider scale. But you said that, yes, you're gonna have to pick up the slide. You know the dad that comes home from work and I say this to the moms or the partners that are listening, and it's oh, can you take the baby? because they cry all day and I've not had to go to the toilet or I've not had a shower, which most of the moms will have experienced, i'm sure And dad turns around and says, oh, we're not working all day, oh well, she's not being at this bar. You know, come on now. You know you are gonna have to pick up that slide.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But we don't necessarily so when we have dads in groups and we run the support groups that we run. These are the sort of things that you can word it a little bit differently. I'm really if you're a workman or a tradesman, for example, i'm a bit dirty, i'm a bit smelly, let me get a shower, then I'll take baby and you go and do you. You know, but we don't teach you how to have that conversation, because the first thing is, oh, i'm tired of being at work all day, and then boom, you've got an argument that didn't need to happen because both are primed to be on the defensive. It's a bit like when they get up in the morning and it becomes a competition for who's the most tired. You know, who had the less sleep during the night? you know, rather than just communicating, the fact that me, your parents, you're gonna be tired for the next 20 years just got accepted. It's just the way it is The next environment, the next town where we goن.
