When you think about the journey of becoming a parent, the excitement and joy of expecting a child often come to mind. But what happens when that journey is abruptly halted by the heartbreak of pregnancy loss? I recently had the privilege of speaking with Brandon Byrnes, a brave father who opened up about his own experience with miscarriage and the subsequent road to healing. Together, we explored the rollercoaster of emotions that come with such a loss and the importance of sharing our stories to find solace and support.
We also took the time to discuss the often-overlooked experiences of men who have gone through miscarriages, recognizing the unique challenges they face in expressing their grief.
Through sharing the raw emotions and experiences surrounding pregnancy loss, this episode aims to bring comfort and understanding to those who have faced a similar heartache. As Brandon's story demonstrates, the journey of healing is ongoing, and it's through connecting with others that we can find the support and hope needed to move forward. So join us as we shed light on this deeply emotional topic, and let's create a space together where those who have suffered pregnancy loss can feel seen, heard, and understood.
If you are a male partner looking for support following a loss of pregnancy, or you are with a male partner who could benefit from support, the Dads & Miscarriage Facebook community is here to help.
As always, thank you for spending part of your week with us!
Show Music
European Sunrise & God Remembers by Anthony Catcoli
Among The Stars (Stripped) by Violet Mourning
Drift by Bobo Renthlei
From Soundstripe
When you think about the journey of becoming a parent, the excitement and joy of expecting a child often come to mind. But what happens when that journey is abruptly halted by the heartbreak of pregnancy loss? I recently had the privilege of speaking with Brandon Byrnes, a brave father who opened up about his own experience with miscarriage and the subsequent road to healing. Together, we explored the rollercoaster of emotions that come with such a loss and the importance of sharing our stories to find solace and support.
We also took the time to discuss the often-overlooked experiences of men who have gone through miscarriages, recognizing the unique challenges they face in expressing their grief.
Through sharing the raw emotions and experiences surrounding pregnancy loss, this episode aims to bring comfort and understanding to those who have faced a similar heartache. As Brandon's story demonstrates, the journey of healing is ongoing, and it's through connecting with others that we can find the support and hope needed to move forward. So join us as we shed light on this deeply emotional topic, and let's create a space together where those who have suffered pregnancy loss can feel seen, heard, and understood.
If you are a male partner looking for support following a loss of pregnancy, or you are with a male partner who could benefit from support, the Dads & Miscarriage Facebook community is here to help.
As always, thank you for spending part of your week with us!
Show Music
European Sunrise & God Remembers by Anthony Catcoli
Among The Stars (Stripped) by Violet Mourning
Drift by Bobo Renthlei
From Soundstripe
My name is Kelly Jean-Philippe and you are listening to the Welcome to Fatherhood podcast. Today's episode contains segments that may be triggering to some listeners. My guest is Brandon Burns. Brandon was born in Reno, nevada, where he spent a short time in foster care before being adopted and moving to Northern California, where he still resides. After graduating high school, brandon joined the military for four years and later earned his bachelor and MBA degree at a local university. Now you may have noticed the change in the way this week's episode is introduced. That's because of the nature of what Brandon and I discuss in this conversation. In 2018, brandon became a father and learned nine months later that he was going to have twins, but the outcome was not what he and his wife expected.
Speaker 2:And then I just remember walking into that room and hearing not like the scream of a woman in labor but the scream of a woman losing her child, And that was so much harder to hear. There's a very specific cry and the doctor that had to help us get the babies out after we lost them in the miscarriage He was actually having a baby the following week, So he was very emotionally affected by that as well, I think a few hours later my wife finally calmed down and was able to start processing that moment. But that was a very hard thing to go through.
Speaker 1:This may be a challenging conversation to listen through, but we believe there is payoff.
Speaker 2:I think it's also a way to heal, you know, for both you and I. Engaging like this, we can both speak into each other's stories. And again, it's not giving advice, I'm not. I'm not telling you what books to read, I'm not telling you how to cope, but just listening to you and you listening to me, i think is a powerful way to engage and in heal.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this conversation and for spending part of your day with us, and now here's the episode. All right, so why don't you go ahead and start by please introducing yourself?
Speaker 2:So my name is Brandon Burns. I am currently 30 years old, i've been married for seven years, i have five kids under five, and I live in northern California, which is where I've been most of my life ever since about the age of four I was a former military, got out about seven years ago and went to college, and then I would also say another big thing to know about me is that I'm adopted as well.
Speaker 1:So this is the first time that we're meeting, and the way that the connection happened is through a podcast that I was recently on, the fatherhood field notes. Thank you, the fatherhood field notes podcast with our buddy Ned, and you have also been featured on that podcast, and so you reached out to me, maybe about a week or so ago, brendan, and you said that you had heard the conversation that I had with Ned on the podcast and it resonated with you because you also have a personal story to share as well, and so we're now having this conversation. So the topic, part of the topics that I covered with Ned on his podcast was my experience with pregnancy loss and supporting my wife and what that was like for me, and that seems to have resonated with you. So give me a sense of how did you come across that, what resonated with you and what prompted you to reach out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I started by introducing that I have five kids under five, which means my oldest is four, and if the people listening are doing math, they're wondering how did you have five kids in four years? So after our oldest was born, in July 2018, at nine months old, we found out we were pregnant with twins. So that was pretty shocking, not because twins don't run in the family, but we just never expected to have twins, especially within nine months of having our first. Yeah, so my wife was breastfeeding our oldest, and she actually had to stop, because growing twins inside of her plus breastfeeding a child was just like taking too much out of her body.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I went through a really intense season at work, and that took us into July 2019. And at that point, i decided to take a sabbatical, because the season prior to that had been so intense. And a week after I took that sabbatical, my wife started bleeding, and so we actually had to get the neighbors to come over to watch our son, because nobody else was available. It was it was at nine o'clock at night, so we went to the ER. We're there for an hour and the doctor did a ultrasound, and that was really neat because, you know, we got to see the twins for the first time, and even I think we were eight weeks into the pregnancy at that point they were dancing on the screen in the ultrasound. What?
Speaker 1:do you mean by dancing?
Speaker 2:They were. They were very close to each other And they were doing these really interesting movements that you could see on screen. That was just obvious, dancing to the point where the technician was laughing because she had never seen that before, and that was just a beautiful moment, to be honest, amidst that chaos of what was going on. So about an hour later, the doctor calls us in and he says straight up you're going to have a miscarriage And you're going to lose your, your babies. And so my wife is devastated, absolutely torn up, crying, and the doctor, you know, is kind of young, probably a new doctor, and he, he looks at me and he shrugs and he's like I don't see what the big deal is, that shouldn't be bad news. Like you're, you're going to be okay, you're just going to lose your, your children, that's it, you know.
Speaker 1:And then he he was sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay, i'm having a really visceral response to what you just said And I can't put it into words yet, but I'm legitimately fighting back tears And I don't know if it's because I'm angry, which I am, or if it's because what you're saying is resonating with my version of the first pregnancy. Doesn't stick thing. So right. Okay, i'm sorry to interrupt. You, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So going back to your original question, what? what resonated with your story? That was it right there. When, when you mentioned that during your podcast, i was like, oh my gosh, that's exactly what I went through, just completely disregarding my wife didn't, didn't care that she was so torn apart by that news, just the only thing that mattered was that she was going to be okay And that that was really shocking.
Speaker 2:So we went home, we were devastated And then we basically had the night of to sleep on it. We'll go up the next morning And just, we were determined to do whatever we could to keep that pregnancy going. So my wife was able to meet with a specialist And that specialist actually disagreed with the original doctor and said we had a chance that the babies could make it. So what followed? that was about six weeks where my wife was on bed rest, and bed rest sounds really relaxing, but it was absolute, a horrible time Basically watching my, my wife, dying Because she she was bleeding internally. There was, there was some kind of blood clot or something inside the uterus And the specialist told us that, whatever that was, it was big enough to basically pull the twins inside of it and terminate the pregnancy Like, if you can imagine, like a black hole, and and, and there was nothing we could do besides trying to hold on and keep her as relaxed as possible, but she was bleeding constantly and losing more and more blood every day.
Speaker 1:Was she getting blood transfusions at the time, or anything like that?
Speaker 2:I think they didn't want to do blood transfusions Because it might have messed things up a little bit more than they would. You know, maybe her body had a bad reaction, maybe the babies, you know and then it it took forever. It seemed like forever during that period of time. Then also there was that feeling that things were just flying, time was passing by and we couldn't keep track of it. Through all that, my son was learning to walk, because he was about a year old and not really understanding why mom wasn't available. That was really interesting for me to do everything for my wife, try to help my son learn to walk, and then just hoping everything was going to be okay. With the pregnancy, at 14 weeks we had reached the second trimester and that's typically when you're clear, you have a pretty good shot of completing the pregnancy.
Speaker 2:I took my wife to a doctor's appointment and I dropped her off. She was supposed to be there for an hour. An hour and a half goes by and my wife calls me and she's in shock. I said what's going on? She said she's been in the room for an hour and a half and nobody came to look at her. She said I think I'm miscarrying the babies. Oh God, i was across town because I didn't think anything was going to happen. She's out of doctor's office Within 30 minutes.
Speaker 2:I had to drop my son off at my sister's house. I drove through town and it was like God was parting traffic for me to get through. I showed up at the doctor's office, run upstairs and not a single person reacted to me at all. I just went straight past them into the back room, find my wife on a table in shock and she's just shaking, freezing, and I can tell she needs to go to the hospital. I ran back to the front, asked them to call an ambulance. Nobody would do it. Then a nurse showed up finally and she actually laughed at me and was basically like why are you worried right now? You shouldn't be upset, you just need to go to the hospital and get her checked out.
Speaker 2:That was all very confusing. Not what I expected at a doctor's office at all. Later we had a doctor tell us that that particular clinic was a place where a lot of women go to have abortions. They're basically in a place of their life where they really don't care about the pregnancy, for whatever reason. We got assigned that doctor's office. That's why they were so confused at why we cared so much about our babies.
Speaker 2:I grabbed my wife, put her in the car and it was rush hour of traffic at that point. I was trying to get to the hospital, which was 30 minutes away, which is where they told us to go. On the way to the hospital my wife had that big rush of fluid that comes right before the baby's born. She just starts screaming. She's terrified. I called 911, got an ambulance. They were able to help us get to the hospital at that point. Then I just remember walking into that room and hearing, not like the scream of a woman in labor but the scream of a woman losing her child. That was so much harder to hear. There's a very specific cry. The doctor that had to help us get the babies out after we lost them in the miscarriage he was actually having a baby the following week. He was very emotionally affected by that as well, i think. A few hours later my wife finally calmed down and was able to start processing that moment. That was a very hard thing to go through.
Speaker 1:I'm composing myself because I honestly don't know how to follow up Anything that you just said the chances that things would orchestrate the way that they did. for your wife to end up at a clinic that sounds more I don't even know what a good comparison would be. And the doctor that night that just shrugged the nurse laughing in your face, and all of that. I'm deeply disturbed by one couple, one person, even though it was the both of you even having that combination of experiences in one pregnancy. I don't even know what to say. Can you talk about some of the thoughts, feelings, emotions attached from your perspective while in the midst of you experiencing all of that?
Speaker 2:Because of my military background, i've been trained to be able to cope with chaos and really being able to desensitize and turn off my emotions while I'm going through a serious situation.
Speaker 2:And because of that, in the midst of that whole period of time, i think I was pretty emotionally removed from it, pretty calm, collected and just focused on what had to be done.
Speaker 2:But after we lost the children and it was over even years later now I would describe it as this if you could imagine a person in a dark void that's just screaming at the top of their lungs as hard as they can, that's like the background noise in my soul after having lost a child, i think, especially after seeing them on the ultrasound dancing that wasn't maybe a full connection to having that child in my hands, which let me just touch on that real quick.
Speaker 2:So after the babies came out, there were bodies, and that was hard but it was so beautiful too, because the umbilical cord was like the finest piece of string you could imagine and it was bright silver. They had fingers and toes, the toenail beds, they had everything, just like a person. They were just small And they didn't have eyes and skin yet, but everything was there to let you know they were human. And so between them dancing on the ultrasound screen and then that brief moment where I got to hold the bodies in my hand, that was that connection of meeting my child and children. So I forget what I was saying before that, but Let me interject.
Speaker 1:Yeah, What did that moment watching your twins dance in the ultrasound mean to you while you were watching it, And what is the meaning that it's gained since everything that's happened?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there was a joy there, right, That the babies had no clue what was happening. We were worried, but they were fine, They had each other and they were doing what the baby is supposed to do in the womb When they died. I had this vision because I'm a Christian. I had a vision of Jesus coming in the womb and grabbing their hands and saying it's time to go. You can't stay here, but I'm going to take you to a safe place, a better place, And so that brought me a lot of peace, because we lost them and it was a devastating way to go, But I believe that they never knew they were in danger. I think that they had a sense they were safe and OK. And then, right before the end, I just pictured Jesus taking their hands and taking them to a safe place.
Speaker 1:What does going through that do to you as a father psychologically?
Speaker 2:It makes me hold on to everything a little bit tighter. I don't take the time with my kids for granted. In fact, a prayer I often pray is God, please don't take my children. I'm OK getting cancer. I just lost a sister a couple of months ago And that was hard but it was OK. But my children, it's like God, please not my kids, not my children, god. And I know that at one point I was worrying that someone would And just thankful for every moment and every day I have with them. you know we don't know how much time we're going to have with our kids and our kids honestly don't know how much time they have with us. So I try to maximize every opportunity I have with them to be present and to make sure they know I love them, you know, just in case something were to happen.
Speaker 1:My condolences for the loss of your sister a couple of months ago. Have you and your wife found a way to honor the lives of the twins? And, if you have, if you don't mind sharing, how did you guys do that?
Speaker 2:So in the hospital we actually talked to a chaplain that was there at the time And he prayed for us. He talked to us for a while And then he told us about this program in Sacramento where this group gets together once a year and basically has a collaborative funeral slash celebration of life remembrance. And that was a very unique experience because, unlike most funerals, you know, be it a good friend, your mom, maybe a sibling We knew everybody was there because they had lost a child And there was, there was hundreds of us. It was outdoors, in a garden, and and that was just a very beautiful way to remember our children, alongside a lot of other families that had gone through the same exact thing. Yeah, they also gave us a butterfly. They actually gave us two because we had lost two children and we took our son with us and he was able to release them into the sky. That was also a beautiful picture as well.
Speaker 1:I have been part of those type of memorial services. I have not attended the ones for pediatric families, because I think it's different than for families who have lost an adult family member. I've been to a handful of those and I can only imagine both the sense of camaraderie If that's the right word the sense of horror being in a space like that, seeing hundreds of other families who know the pain that is very intimate to you and your family. How has your perspective changed? I mean, here you are military training, you've gone through this horrific event, you're a husband, you're a father. How has Brandon's perspective changed after losing two children?
Speaker 2:I think I grew up a lot through that experience and not just developing as a father, trying to be a better father, but I think that I'm truly able to understand suffering and help others through their grief process. In my life I've lost my parents, i've lost a sibling, i've lost children now and friends. I think I've experienced what most people have experienced as far as suffering and loss. It's not really to give advice, but just to be with them in the moment and to let them know that they're not alone. Sadly, two of my good friends lost a one-year-old and a two-year-old last year. I had to walk through that with them. The one that lost their one-year-old has four other children. But it doesn't make a difference how many kids you have. It's still just as hard. It's been a better suite. It's not a cohort I wanted to be in, but it's the reality. I want to definitely use that as much as I can to help other people.
Speaker 1:You said something very beautifully there which resonates a lot with me and that the image of walking through it with the people who are going through it as well. That summarizes who I am as a person, what I do. I think by listening to the conversation with Ned you also find out that I'm a chaplain. That summarizes my practice just in general. If you can go back to those intense moments here you are at the hospital with your wife. You hear this particular cry that is different than the labor cry. You're in your own mind. What are the things Brandon's internal voice is saying to Brandon in Brandon's mind?
Speaker 2:Stay calm, no matter what happens. You can get through it. Be there for your wife. She needs you right now. It's going to be hard, it's going to be a journey, but you're not alone and you can make it?
Speaker 1:How have you been able to connect emotionally to these events after having gone through the military training of the synthesizing from these emotional events?
Speaker 2:Just really realizing it was a really chaotic thing to go through, being proud of myself for supporting my wife through that time. We really didn't have anybody else at that particular time because we lived almost an hour away from any family. Similar to that. We thought it was really neat to be by ourselves and start our own chapter in a new town. When we went through that difficulty, not having people around to help was definitely hard. With that being said, i really stepped up to the plate in caring for my wife, for being a dad to my son and for supporting her emotionally, physically, mentally in some cases, as well as my own emotions. I'm proud of myself for going through that and bearing that burden.
Speaker 1:Were there any things that were particularly helpful to you at the time, that someone might have said or referenced that helped you walk through the different phases of losing your twins?
Speaker 2:There was a couple that lost their 16-year-old daughter the year prior to that. That was very unexpected for them. She crashed her car on the freeway and she had just left their house about five minutes before that on her way to high school. They gave me a book that was really good. I can't remember the title of it right now, but that was super helpful. And then their encouragement that they were there and praying for me and really just know available in case we needed it. Yeah, i definitely spent a lot of time being angry at the doctor in the ER in that group of people in the clinic that nobody did anything. I was grateful to the fire department, the ambulance that showed up to help us and the doctor and nurses that were there for that miscarriage and supported us afterward, and then all the people we've met since that have also lost children and been supportive as well. I think that has made that journey a lot more bearable.
Speaker 1:Did the thought ever cross your mind to confront or to call out or to try to just figure out what the hell was all of that about in terms of the doctor who shrugged, the nurse who laughed in your face? I appreciate you saying that you spent a lot of time being angry. I was going to ask you about that. And in that time of anger or some of the things that you're like, or did you ever get to that point of just wanting to go back and confront these people?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the day after I almost drove back and chewed them out, told them we lost our children. This wasn't. I wasn't freaking out for nothing. I wasn't being over-emotional. I wouldn't say it's their job description to call an ambulance. But I mean, if there's an emergency in your building and somebody's desperately asking you for help, i honestly don't understand. Are people that worried about liability pain for an ambulance? I wouldn't question that for a second. If somebody needed help, cpr or they're going through their own miscarriage, i'd be doing anything I could to help them. So yeah, that was very hard confusing. I wrote a couple letters and I didn't send them. I think that was more for me to process that And, to be honest, i did leave a review for their clinic. So I mean there's a good possibility people lost their jobs over that, which is unfortunate, but I mean we definitely weren't getting the care and the help we needed And I'd hate for somebody else to go through that same experience that we did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was there anything that was said to you that was particularly unhelpful during your moment of grief and loss?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. So there was another couple who had lost a child at 20 weeks And they had us over for dinner And we totally expected them to be supportive and helpful And basically what they said was it's been a long time since we've seen you, so what's been going on in your life besides the miscarriage Like almost as if it was a soccer game or a graduation, and that was just very insensitive of skipping over that and not really asking us if we're OK or offering any sort of supportive advice. The way they described theirs was almost like yeah, we went through it, you'll get over it, it'll be fine, and I think theirs was 40 years ago, but I think to not realize that this is a very fresh thing that has happened. This was only three months after, and then they actually brought up some issues. We were having some personal issues. It made that the focus of the conversation And that's just a really bad time to try to deal with your personal problems with somebody when they're going through grief, and I don't think that most people would do that, but I have heard of other people saying things Similar.
Speaker 2:That really didn't help. This will pass. It's not that big of a deal. None of that should be said in the moment. Just how are you? How can I help? I'm here for you. That's the best thing you can say in those moments.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. So, now that you and your wife, you have lost the twins, what were the conversations like in pursuing another pregnancy and growing the family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think it took I'm trying to think how long So we had our second son in January 2021. So it was probably about nine months until we got pregnant again And I think that whole time we were just still in shock. We definitely didn't want to go through it again And that was a real fear of starting that process and losing another one. I think there were a lot of moments during the pregnancy where we were just hyper-vigilant about anything that was going on And fortunately, the pregnancy was very smooth. The baby was super healthy and has just been a very sweet guy, very easy, his whole life. So that's made this way better than we could have asked for. I think it would have been hard to lose another one. It would have been hard to have a child that had a disability or was not good tempered, but, yeah, he's been a huge blessing to us.
Speaker 1:Have you and your wife taken the time to process together what going through this horrific event means to both of you, collectively and also individually?
Speaker 2:I think yes and no. We've done couples counseling. I think that was good for the initial phase of shock and grief. I think my healing process has been easier And I feel like I'm in a good place now In a lot of ways. She's still struggling And I have no idea how to reach her and help her through that final healing process. We just had a friend lose their eight. They carried a baby full term but it didn't survive, and this was two months ago. The same weekend my sister died And my wife was reliving that whole experience through her friends loss And that was so confusing and shocking for me because I thought she was past it. I thought she had dealt with it and found a resolution And she was panicking, you know, and hyperventilating And I really couldn't understand it. I wasn't sure how I could support her in that moment. So that's something we're still dealing with years later.
Speaker 1:This is really heavy, brendan, this is really heavy, but I thank you for reaching out and wanting to share your story. I guess that's a question that I'll ask you Why is it important for you to share your story?
Speaker 2:I think it's a way of self-expression. You know it's still not an easy thing to talk about And it's not necessarily appropriate for a lot of groups. There's a lot of people out there that don't understand it. You know they didn't lose a child or they haven't had a miscarriage, so they don't really have a way to identify with it. And so when there's somebody else that has gone through that same experience, i want to be able to express my story but also give the opportunity to let them share their story or talk through that. You know, what are you dealing with? What is your wife dealing with? You know you haven't really shared much about your process in this episode, but could you maybe touch on some of your own experience as?
Speaker 1:well, i think the most well. I can't even say that I was going to say the most devastating one. Our third miscarriage was definitely the more visually devastating because it's something that happened here at our house. And getting ready to go to work one morning and hearing my wife call just like you said about your wife, my wife didn't cry. The way that she called me had a different vibration than any other way she's called me, whether she was happy and sad or it was just a different ring to her voice, and it communicated horror. It communicated an alarming amount of emotions that my wife typically does not express. I've said it before I'm the more expressive one in our relationship And that morning, hearing her voice, i would compare it to, you know, running your nails on a chalkboard or something like that.
Speaker 1:So, and coming down the stairs and just seeing how in pain she was, and it took me a while to accept that I couldn't do anything. Not because I didn't want to do something, there was nothing that I could do. I think and you tell me if you agree with this or not we men, our mind does go into how to solve it mode, because we want to provide something physically, and I know that's an overgeneralization, but I think it's a safe one to say men, typically we want to do something, we want to provide some tangible solution or at least give some form of verbal, the whatever is comparable to tangibility in words, like that's what we want to provide.
Speaker 1:And that was entirely out of my control That was entirely out of my control And I stood there paralyzed, and I stood there horrified and I stood there feeling all sorts of ineptitudes. I mean, i just felt like I was worthless and useless at that moment. And my son was upstairs, and so I also had to take him to my in-laws house. Coming back to seeing my wife and all the blood in the bathroom and just how in pain she was, it bothers me even to this day, talking about it, that I had to leave her home by herself while I went to take my son over to my in-laws. And you said earlier that going through that and not having anyone around was really difficult. And here we are. We had. we have people around my in-laws live 10 minutes away from me by car, but they didn't know we were expecting. So we were going through this as if we might as well had been in the middle of nowhere with no one around. So it took a while, man.
Speaker 1:It took a while to get to this point where I have opened up to talk about my experiences. I don't think I am fully aware of what it all means to me at this point still, but what I'm encouraged by is this conversation that we're having now, and I'll tell you why. When I got your email, i ran upstairs and I said to my wife this guy just emailed me because he heard my conversation on this podcast that I was a guest on And he said that he wanted to talk to me. That, to me, was everything, because this conversation that we're having is not a conversation that is easy to have. Number one, because of how connected we are to the experiences. Right.
Speaker 1:I think it's also a difficult conversation to hear from the perspective of other people, not because they haven't gone through it, but typically people in our position, guys, dads like us, we who have gone through it, we don't talk about it. And there are reasons why we don't talk about it, both personal reasons And, i strongly believe, societal reasons as well. If moms who have gone through miscarriage talk about it, i think, for as cringy as those conversations might be, i think the larger society might find a way to tolerate it more. And I think it is a lot more disturbing on the societal level And this is just me spitting off the top here The fact that men are actually talking about this thing and we don't know what to really do with it. And I think that there are people who will be very encouraged to hear this conversation, as there will be people who might even forego this conversation just because of the nature of the conversation and the parties involved in having it you and myself.
Speaker 1:So, to respond more directly to your question, my process I'm in the middle of my process currently. Still, my family, my wife and I we're done having children. I have a vasectomy scheduled for next month. We're done having children, and so I have written about my experience. I've been talking more about my experience, all as a way to discover the things that I need to discover to make meaning of it, or to make more meaning of it, and to also just blow the lid off of the perception that or whatever societal cap there is that has prevented men to open up and really talk about this stuff.
Speaker 1:Because here is what's startling to me. You've attended, unfortunately, a memorial service as a result of the loss of your twins. You were in the presence of hundreds of other dads. In particular, i'm zooming in on the dads and hundreds of other dads who know a pain that you also know. My question to you is how many conversations have you had, with the exception of the ones that you just mentioned, but how frequent are those conversations that you've been able to have with other dads who have gone through what you've gone through?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think at least once every year, since we've lost our children. Right after the miscarriage I met with a dad who hadn't lost a child And he was incredibly supportive. He cried with me and everything, and he was the one that just lost his full term baby, and so that was interesting to watch him years ago, being with me, supporting me, not knowing that he was gonna go through the same loss, and so that really spoke to me, i think, and he invited me over. We actually made a memorial like natural playground for children And he named it after his son that he lost. So that was, yeah, incredible.
Speaker 2:But you know, when we were having that conversation years ago, he had no idea he was going to go through that, and so I definitely believe that I'm impacting other people through those conversations. And then I think it's also a way to heal, you know, for both you and I, engaging like this, we can both speak into each other's stories And, again, it's not giving advice I'm not. I'm not telling you what books to read, i'm not telling you how to cope, but just listening to you and you listening to me, i think is a powerful way to engage and in heal 100%.
Speaker 1:I've been holding back from asking this question, but I'm going to ask it. Did you and your wife get to the point of naming your twins And if you wouldn't mind sharing your twins names?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we, we didn't get a chance to fully discover what gender they were, so we named them Taylor and Jaden, because those names are can be boy or girl. We're both pretty convinced they were boys. So I, i consider myself a father of five boys And, and you know, we, we still consider them our children. You know, just because they didn't make it the full term doesn't mean they didn't live. They had a heartbeat, they danced and in some day we look forward to meeting them again.
Speaker 1:And conversation with your three living children. Have you introduced them to their siblings, who are not here?
Speaker 2:I think there will definitely be that moment. The two year old and six month old obviously probably wouldn't really understand. I think my four year old will And I look forward to having that conversation with him. And there may be a part of him that remembers, you know, mommy's tummy being big and then not big but no babies, you know Or that that time when mommy was in bed and couldn't hang out with him. There probably is something there that that we really don't know about. So I think having that conversation someday will will close that loop for him in his own journey.
Speaker 1:I'm not really sure, brandon, how to bring this conversation to a landing point, because it just feels like I don't know, i don't, i can't put into words what it feels like for me in the moment. Honestly, i feel like I'm back at work with families who are, you know, with a family who's going through this, and even there, professionally, there are times where I know I need to exit the room, but there's just something that I can't leave the room yet, and that's that's what I'm feeling. That's what I'm feeling right now. So I'm not rushing to end our conversation, but also know that I can't stay in this space too much longer.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's, it's, yeah. So I am going to shut my mouth and I am going to give you whatever final words you feel are adequate for this moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, honestly, i was hoping for some advice on, maybe, how you've helped your wife or where she's at, you know, is she's still struggling just as much as my wife is, you know. I don't know how long it's been for you guys, but that aside, i would just say that, yeah, there's, there's no real time limit on grief. I don't think anybody needs to be needs to man up and try to get over it, get past it. I know people that lost children 20 years ago that still feel that grief, and so I think there's nothing wrong with carrying that with you and in using it, as you will, throughout your life.
Speaker 1:Thank you for those words. Just to respond to what you just mentioned in terms of your wife, i think what you just said, as these last words, is the approach that I would have said to you and I will reiterate to you now. I've come to describe grief as a. Ok, have you seen the movie? This is a. This is an old school movie, but a beautiful mind with Russell Crow.
Speaker 2:Sounds familiar.
Speaker 1:He is reminding he is playing the role of a brilliant mathematician who ends up having hallucinations and as a result of of his brilliance, i mean he quite honestly a beautiful mind. But he ended up having hallucinations. And his hallucinations were so real that the characters that he saw led him to behave in really dangerous and scary ways. And so, as he discovered that and his wife he and his wife and you know his colleagues discovered that, he went into treatment and medication and he had a near mental breakdown the whole nine. But he eventually got those hallucinations under control. He didn't stop having them, he recognized what they were and found a way to still thrive, to still live, to still do things and achieve And I think he ended up being nominated and being a recipient of a Nobel Peace Prize and his mathematics achievements.
Speaker 1:And in the movie with Russell Crow there is the scene where he is much older now and he is celebrating his son's graduation. Now his children are adult children and he is celebrating their graduation and often a distance. There are the four actors that play the characters that he's hallucinated, the whole movie, and they're still dressed the same way and whatnot. And so he is talking to his family. He's an older man now and I think he's fixing his son's tie or something like that, and then he looks off in a distance and the four characters are just kind of standing there staring back at him.
Speaker 1:And so he stares off in a distance. I think it's the wife or the son who asked him hey, dad, are you okay, are you seeing something? Because they're thinking, oh no, here we go again. And the way he responds is like no, i'm okay, given the indication, like I acknowledge the thing that I'm seeing. But the relationship to that is different now.
Speaker 1:I've taken that as a template to talk about, to make sense of grief. For me It will always be there, like these characters who represent the hallucination of the Russell Crowe character. They'll always be there. There was a moment where it was so intense that that relationship was so close. It was really difficult to parse out what was real, what was fiction in light of the movie and the character. And it's just like grief It's so fresh, it's so real, it feels tangible even, and it affects how that person who is experiencing that grief, that loss, that pain, lives their day to day. And especially when it's a loss, that loss would never be replaced. You could have I tell people this all the time you could have a hundred kids after the loss of one child. Those hundred would never replace that one child. So that's a loss that you always have Over time.
Speaker 1:I think what can happen is the relationship to that loss, to that void, changes Because we change as people. It doesn't mean that the loss stops being any less impactful. It doesn't mean that it stops being any less meaningful, it doesn't mean that it stops hurting any less, but the relationship changes And in a way, what I see and how I think about it is that loss is no longer threatening to me. Now I've turned it into a companion And that companion is just going to go along with me wherever I go. And there will be times when circumstances happen that is going to make me remember how ugly that companion and how intense that companion felt. And then there are times when I will sit quietly reading a book and the companion will be right there next to me, but it won't have that same dynamic, that same relation.
Speaker 1:That process is different for everyone. There might even be a time where you can look at that companion off in a distance, because there will feel like there's now some distance between me and this grief, me and this loss, me and this absence. But whether or not that happens, the relationship changes. So how to support your wife through that brother, i don't know, but I think if that means, if anything that I said means anything to you, a good paradigm to have would be checking in on your wife and asking what's the relationship between you and this absence today, and supporting her through that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the next day, or the next moment, or the next panic attack, or the next hyperventilation, or the next loss, or the next movie, or the next memory or the next. What's that relationship and how can I support you through that?
Speaker 2:That's great. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:No, man, thank you. Thank you for reaching out, thank you for not being shy about opening up about your experience, thank you for wanting to talk about this so openly and transparently. And, man, my hope is that someone will reach out to you after hearing your conversation on this podcast and say Hey, brandon, i need to, i need to connect with you. So, in the event that, in order to facilitate that, i should say how can listeners reach out to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'll go ahead and give out my email if that sounds good. Sounds perfect, and please just reach out. I'm an open book, as you just heard, and I will listen as patiently as Kelly just did. So my email is b y r n e s 00002 at yahoocom. And yes, please, please, write me. If you want to, we can chat through email on the phone. Whatever you want to do, but I definitely love to talk to you and hear your story.
Speaker 1:Do you have any social media platforms that you're on? Would you be willing to share that as well?
Speaker 2:I'm on all of them, but I've walked away from social media just to try to be present more with my family and stay involved in other things. So unfortunately I could give you the information but I probably would not respond that way.
Speaker 1:So the more direct way is the email address.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Awesome, brandon. Again, thank you, my friend, and I am wishing you and your family all the best, particularly your wife, as she still is working through this loss so many years later. Thank you for being brave and sharing your story And, yeah, that's all I can say. That's all I can say right now, man, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, i appreciate the conversation.